Why Latter-day Saints Support Constitutional Gun Carry

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught,Joseph Smith Gun

“Here is one principle which is eternal; it is the duty of all men to protect their lives and the lives of the household, whenever necessity requires, and no power has a right to forbid it, should the last extreme arrive.” (Joseph Smith, HC 6:605.)

In 2013 the Utah legislature passed HB76, restoring the protection of the right Joseph said no one had the right to forbid.

Secular arguments for the support of protecting the right to arms from the founding fathers to statistics that show states with fewer gun laws are safer than those without, or that 8 states already have “Constitutional carry” are redundant by now. However, the real question is “what have Church leaders said about it?”

Heber C. Kimball taught, “It is also for your salvation to equip yourselves. … Now, I will tell you, I have about a hundred shots on hand all the time,—three or four fifteen-shooters, and. three or four revolvers, right in the room where I sleep; and the Devil does not like to sleep there, for he is afraid they will go off half-cocked. If you will lay a bowie knife or a loaded revolver under your pillow every night, you will not have many unpleasant dreams, nor be troubled with the nightmare; for there is nothing that the Devil is so much afraid of as a weapon of death. … Let us be ready, guns cocked; none of your half-cocked.” -JD 5:164-165

This is exactly the principle that Brigham Young said protected the people from the murderous mobs, “By what means did [God] keep the mob from destroying us? It was by means of being well armed with the weapons of death to send them to hell cross lots. Just so you have got to do. As for this people fostering to themselves that the day has come for them to sell their guns and ammunition to their enemies, and sit down to sleep in peace, they will find themselves deceived, and before they know, they will sleep until they are slain… We must be so prepared that they dare not come to us in a hostile manner without being assured they will meet a vigorous resistance, and ten to one they will meet their grave. … Let this people here lie down to sleep, and be entirely off their watch, and the first thing they know, they are in the greatest danger. You must not desert the watch tower, but do as I do—keep some person awake in your house all night long, and be ready, at the least tap of the foot, to offer a stout resistance, if it is required. Be rely at any moment to kill twenty of your enemies at least. Let every house be a fort. … I am my own policeman, and have slept, scores of nights, with my gun and sword by my side, that is, if I slept at all. I am still a policeman. Now is the day to watch. It is as important for me to watch now, as well as pray, as it ever has been since I came into this kingdom. It requires watching, as well as praying men; take turns at it, let some watch while others pray, and then change round, but never let any time pass without a watcher, lest you be overtaken in an hour when you think not; it will come as a thief in the night. Look out for your enemies, for we know not how they will come, and what enemy it will be. Take care of yourselves. … Take care of your grain, and take care of yourselves, that no enemy come to slay you. Be always on hand to meet them with death, and send them to hell, if they come to you. May God bless you all. Amen.” -JD 1:171-172

“But God said he will fight our battles for us” is the cry of some.  Brigham Young explained though that for God to fight our battles for us, we have a work to perform,

“We all believe that the Lord will fight our battles; but how? Will He do it while we are unconcerned and make no effort whatever for our own safety when an enemy is upon us? If we make no efforts to guard our towns, our houses, our cities, our wives and children, will the Lord guard them for us? He will not; but if we pursue the opposite course and arrive to help Him to accomplish His designs, then will He fight our battles. We are baptized for the remission of sins; but it would be quite as reasonable to expect remission of sins without baptism, as to expect the Lord to fight our battles without our taking every precaution to be prepared to defend ourselves. The Lord requires us to be quite as willing to fight our own battles as to have Him fight them for us. If we are not ready for an enemy when he comes upon us, we have not lived up to the requirements of Him who guides the ship of Zion, or who dictates the affairs of his kingdom.” (Brigham Young, JD 11:131.)

One does not ask permission from Babylon to obey the commands of God

UPDATE:  Governor Gary Herbert vetoed HB76 March 22nd 2013.  HB76 passed the House and Senate with veto proof majorities, yet they were too cowardly to do their duty and refused to override the governors tyrannical veto. You can find out who your legislator is here

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82 Responses to Why Latter-day Saints Support Constitutional Gun Carry

  1. scootd28 says:

    Ezra, I still think there’s a higher law. The prophets ever since Joseph Smith have dealt with a church in apostasy against the commandments of the Lord – primarily the United Order and the Law of Consecration. We are called to a higher law – and we are not living up to it. I believe that we must, at least individually, live up to that higher law if we are to be welcomed into Zion. It may be on an individual basis, but we must strive for it. I have a friend who carried, and she was prompted to sell her guns and rely on the Lord. I have to believe that somehow, at some point, that is our goal.

    • scootd28 says:

      Oh, I would! The revelations for the church are for the whole church, and are expressed as commandments. Individual revelations may well be more relevant to that person’s individual progress. Now, if that personal revelation is actually contrary to revelation for the church (a commandment), we might have a problem, but I don’t think these “words of the prophets” that you mentioned in the article are actually commandments, they are counsel. Such words require, in my opinion, a confirmation of the spirit. For example, we are counseled on food storage and self-sufficiency, but I would not question an individual who was told specifically by the Lord to give away their food to the poor – even give away all their possessions and go without purse nor script.

      • scootd28 says:

        No argument there, Ezra. And not disagreeing (as I said already) with your point. Just holding out hope for a higher law in Zion, and reminding all who will listen that there is a promise of a better world there, and that we need to keep our focus on that, even as we deal with the realities of this telestial existence.

    • Jeena Nilson says:

      If a big dog got a grip on my child or grandchild, I would not drop to my knees and pray for God’s intervention and rescue, I would grab a weapon. I would pray at the same time I was wielding the weapon! To suggest this girl be unarmed is about as silly as suggesting that she do nothing about an illness or disease WHILE praying for help. It is AFTER ALL WE CAN DO by the way. Even Lazarus had to take his own face cloth off.

      • scootd28 says:

        ..and the lion shall lie with the lamb. I’m talking about a higher law. I personally am not living it, and I don’t know anyone who is. I, too, would use whatever violence was necessary to protect my family. I’m not trying to say that, but I am trying to say that EVENTUALLY that is the goal, and we would do well to realize that and prepare ourselves joyfully for the day when it comes. We must always strive to be mindful that this telestial existence is NOT our nature – it is an aberration. We must somehow constantly seek to be worthy of Zion in our hearts, even as we fight the forces of evil in this existence.

        • Miquelito says:

          Nowhere does it say the lion will lie with the lamb.

          • Mike Carter says:

            Until that day when the lamb lays down with the the lion I would recommend that the lamb carry a gun.

          • It’s not in the Bible, but in one of our LDS songs, THE SPIRIT OF GOD:

            “4. How blessed the day when the lamb and the lion
            Shall lie down together without any ire,
            And Ephraim be crowned with his blessing in Zion,
            As Jesus descends with his chariot of fire!”

        • Miquelito says:

          This is a quote often misattributed to Benjamin Franklin, but at least it has the animals correct:

          “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.”

          W. W. Phelps got it wrong, but it is one of my favorite hymns anyway. :)

  2. scootd28 says:

    So, I’m not disagreeing what your point here, just reminding all who will listen that this is not the ultimate, and we each need to strive to reach beyond these principles to an even higher standard – the standard of Zion.

    • scootd28 says:

      that should read….So, I’m not disagreeing WITH your point here,……

    • Sam says:

      No principle of the gospel requires us to rely wholly on the Lord for our salvation. In every principle we are saved after all WE can do. The same applies to our duty as fathers to protect which was reiterated in The Family proclamation. Sticking your head in the sand and praying for protection is not now, nor will it ever be a gospel principle.

      • scootd28 says:

        Sam, and everyone….I must ask again – where did I ever say in my comments anything about sticking my head in the sand. I said that there is a higher law that we should strive for. I said, “I’m not living it, and I don’t know anyone who is”. I readily acknowledge the terrestrial existence that we live in, and am as much subject as anyone else to the visceral need to protect what is “mine”. I do believe, though, that the “terribleness” of Zion will be the Lord’s doing, not ours through guns. But we’re not in Zion, are we. I know that. I long for Zion, I long for the day when we can live the higher law of which I speak, but we’re not there, and until then, reality falls short of my dream.

        • Scott Stover says:

          Perhaps my position would be made more clear by reading the article I just posted on Mormon Chronicle:
          https://www.mormonchronicle.com/gun-control-and-the-american-psyche/

          • Sam says:

            I still don’t agree with your claim that God will save us through some higher law. There is no scriptural reference to Him ever saving anyone or that He ever will save anyone without their active participation.

          • Scott Stover says:

            Turn the other cheek? D&C 98:22-38? The sermon on the mount? These are what I consider scriptural references to a higher law, and actually ones where the Lord has taught us the higher law, and clearly in a context that is current, and not future. Sam – I’m every bit as vulnerable as anyone else to the human impulse to protect our property and loved ones, even our community, state and nation. I’m not saying everyone else is sinful, or that because we believe in protecting ourselves, even owning guns (I do own a couple of guns), that they’re somehow not worthy. I’m just holding out an ensign saying “there will be a better day”. I believe that is a promise, and that we need to be striving for it spiritually.

          • Sam says:

            These references refer to offenses and not threats to life or liberty.

  3. Rex says:

    Regarding the establishment of Zion, we read in D&C 45: 67-70:
    “And the glory of the Lord shall be there, and the terror of the Lord also shall be there, insomuch that the wicked will not come unto it, and it shall be called Zion. And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety. And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another. And it shall be said among the wicked: Let us not go up to battle against Zion, for the inhabitants of Zion are terrible; wherefore we cannot stand.”

  4. Rex says:

    Whenever Israel has been organized, have not the armies of Israel also been organized? What was the Nauvoo legion? What is the terror of the Lord? What will make the inhabitants of Zion terrible? I contend that it will be because they are armed and organized in a chaotic, violent world and the Lord will hedge up the way of Zion’s enemies and sustain his soldiers. Was this not the way of the righteous Nephites?

    Remember what Moroni said to Pahoran in Alma 60:11: “Behold, could ye suppose that ye could sit upon your thrones, and because of the exceeding goodness of God ye could do nothing and he would deliver you? Behold, if ye have supposed this ye have supposed in vain.”

    • scootd28 says:

      All true, Rex. However, I would hope that what makes Zion “terrible” is the power of the Lord making it unapproachable, impregnable, and protected. I, at least, hope that this would be accomplished by the power of His word, not by man-made weapons. Not an argument – just pointing to an alternative thought.

      • scootd28 says:

        Cause the thought of having guns in Zion is repugnant to me.

      • Rex says:

        Part of what will make Zion terrible is the Lord’s power, but it will be the Lord’s power that sustains his armies. Ever hear the story of Aaron holding up Moses’s arms in order for Israel to win a certain battle? Judging from what I read in the Book of Mormon, if you’re unwilling to pull the trigger in your own defense and in defense of righteousness, you aren’t worthy of the Lord’s protection. It’s a two-way street. Notice in D&C 45 that he who is unwilling to “take up the sword against his neighbor” must flee to Zion. So, Zion will be the place for the peacemaker, but not the pacifist, I don’t think. There is a difference.

        • scootd28 says:

          Rex, you’ve made a pretty judgmental statement there, that if I don’t agree with you I’m “not worthy” of the Lord’s protection. And….suggesting that if I’m a “pacifist” I will have no place in Zion. Perhaps you didn’t mean to say such things. No matter, I know who I am and who I am seeking, with the Lord’s guidance, to become.

          I am saying that I believe Zion will be a place where a higher law is observed. I hope that will be true, and I have faith that will be true, and I will continue to act on that faith.

        • scootd28 says:

          I am also saying that the “terrible”ness of Zion will be enforced by the power of the Lord, not be the weapons of man. I am entitled to that opinion, and that’s all that it is – my having not been there to find out first hand.

          However, we are not in Zion, and I DO own a couple of guns, and I will regrettably use them if forced to in order to protect the lives of my family and neighbors.

          • Rex says:

            My understanding is that once the Lord comes and cleanses the earth, we will live a higher law in peace. Until that time, however, we still live in a telestial world and will have to contend with its forces. Some scriptures seem to say that Zion is going to be established during a turbulent time that might require the saints to take defensive measures. If so, we need to be prepared to do so.

            BTW, in stating what I understand to be a principle, I didn’t mean to be personal; but I realize now that my use of the impersonal “you” could have caused that misunderstanding. I apologize for that.

          • scootd28 says:

            Perhaps I misunderstood also, Rex. I equate Zion to a city like the City of Enoch; even a city living the celestial law, and its protection coming from the hand of the Lord. I hope and pray that in such an environment I will not be forced to consider the possibility of violence. It is foreign to my nature, as I’m sure it is to yours.

          • The US Code says all 18-45 aged men are PART OF THE MILITIA. You can be regular or unorganized. “Unregrettably?” You are mandated by law to defend your family, community and/or state. Are you one of those “girlie men” that we hear a lot about?

          • scootd28 says:

            You know, Edward, I don’t understand how all that I said got twisted into thinking that I am a pacifist. I’m saying that we should all strive to be pacifist – this is the way of the Lord, and it will be the way of Zion. You can choose to believe that or not. However, as much as I regret it, if you want to find out how much of a “girly man” I am, try backing me into a corner with now way out, and you will find out. My natural reaction is to react violently without thinking. I hope someday to overcome that, but I’m not there yet.

          • GraceTruth says:

            There’s no way for me to reply to Rex’s reply below so I’ll reply here if that’s ok. I believe yes also that we must bear arms presently and be prepared to defend ourselves and families however, again we need to differentiate whether it would be wise to defend our rights to bear them and lose our lives in the process. If attacked with guns, fight back but if guns are taken away then don’t fight back or die; we are to live as long as possible. We can’t win in that kind of battle; “they” are too powerful with modern weaponry; it’s a hard cold fact. If it comes to that, we will be forced to lean on the Prophet’s words and decisions. Moses was a Prophet remember that; you and I are not. He did as He was commanded by God. Pray for ans. but always we “Follow the Prophet”.

  5. chadsvans says:

    I am a Latter-day Saint and I don’t support HB76. Your blanket statement headline indicating that the LDS faithful support this bill is silly to me.

    You make a case for your argument using statements from church leaders who lived in pioneer times and under persecution when arming yourself was a way of life.

    I have no qualm with anyone wanting to grasp to these quotes and ram themselves. Having guns and knowing how to use them is a valuable resource. Saying that is why LDS people should support Consitutional carry, however, is a stretch.

    I stand behind Gov. Herbert’s statement that Utah’s gun laws aren’t broken and don’t need fixing. I find that having people taking a class, no matter how rudimentary, is a beneficial and useful tool for law abiding citizens.

  6. Neil B. Normandeau says:

    I am a Latter Day Saint from Montana and I fully support the Second Amendment and in fact the entire Constitution. In my opinion, Every person every where, should have the right to own and bear arms. In fact I believe the USA should revoke all existing gun control laws on the books and install a simple law which states that All U.S. Citizens of sound mind and body will be required to own at least one good firearm and provide adequate documentation that they have recieved training in the care and use of weapons. I believe this would do more to aid this Country and forestall crime than any other thing that could be done. All the laws in the world still cannot get the police or any other authorities to your location fast enough to save you from Any criminal.

    • chadsvans says:

      This is crazy. Be required to own a firearm? What happened to free agency?

      I’m all for the right to bear arms, and there is nothing that anyone has done to take that away — despite what propaganda is out there that the government is coming for your guns, bullets and babies.

      You mention “sound mind and body” and that’s what most gun legislation is trying to help decide. Background checks and education are what most of this battle is really about and, yet, it has been twisted into one side wanting everyone to be “required to own at least one good firearm” and another wanting tighter, more restrictive controls than what’s been proposed.

      In my opinion this whole thing has been blown way out of proportion.

      • scootd28 says:

        Chad, the fear is that any further restrictions represent even more of the camel sticking his nose in the tent door. You may think that’s being paranoid, but to me it’s a symptom of the fact that we (the people…me…a larger number of us) no longer trust the government. We don’t trust them to do things that are truly in the best interest of the people, we don’t trust them to use wisdom, we don’t even trust them to use common sense, much less recognize the principles of liberty and agency. I recently wrote the following article…

        http://scottstover.wordpress.com/2012/12/22/gun-ownership-and-the-american-psyche/

      • scootd28 says:

        That expresses my opinion of the whole issue. I think this lack of trust is a very sad statement, but it is real – very real, and we will never understand what’s going on with gun control, the budget, entitlements, the war on drugs, etc. if we don’t acknowledge that. And…..unfortunately there are many good reasons for not trusting the government.

        • GraceTruth says:

          I totally agree Scootd; your comments are always totally on point and very clear and incisive and inspired in my opinion much like the Savior would answer I believe. I say we hold onto our guns as long as possible and use legal means to support the 2nd amendment however to expect that it will never be over turned would be naive as the socialist movement is rolling forth at such a pace now; It’s almost as if it will be impossible to stop and one day there will likely be a civil war but I hope if that happens that a bomb or bomber or tank/s won’t be used to plow down those who resist. If so, what’s the point? We are to live as long as possible even if under tyranny just as the Jews did in Israel before Moses came to bring them to safety. Sense Lord’s timing and ways.

  7. Mike Carter says:

    I believe the 2nd Amendment, and the Constitution & Bill of Rights, were produced by men inspired of God, therefore the right to bear arms is of God.

    Joseph Smith said that the BOM is most correct book of any on earth and the keystone of our religion and that man get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts than any other book. Alma 43: 46-47 authorizes defending families even unto bloodshed. Alma 48: 14-16, 24 reinforces this principle. Alma 51: 15-20 goes beyond authorizing defense by weapons but compels it. Alma 61: 14, 20 raises the issue to a commandment to go against enemy with the sword if enemy does not repent.

    The 12th A of F obliges us to honor laws, but DC 134:8 qualifies that those they be “good” laws. Laws against the Constitution are not good.

    • GraceTruth says:

      I hadn’t thought about it that way quite honestly. Good point.
      However, let’s say we support the good laws and the 2nd amendment which I choose to do of course and the day comes when they come after the guns. In that day, I suppose you have to decide whether you will die fighting for a right that by that time will no longer exist in a battle that cannot be won as they have the big guns/bombs. Wouldn’t it be wiser to live longer under tyranny once the battle for freedom has been lost and one day if we have to have our heads cut off to defend Christ then die then and in the meantime accomplish many good works for the Lord and our brothers and sisters? Raise children up to God, to fear the Lord much like the humble father did under Korihor (in “TheTestaments”?)Lord came

  8. Rex says:

    This is off-subject, but pursuant to Mike’s reference to the 12th AoF. In light of this AoF, if the Church had been restored before the RevWar, would most Church members have been Tories? If faced with a similar situation today, would most Church members, based on this AoF, side with a tyrannical yet legal government whose laws were not pursuant to the Constitution’s original meaning and intent but pursuant to precedent based on their misinterpretations and perversions (which I dare say applies to many, if not most, of our laws over the last 100 years)? Or would they resist and stand “fast in that liberty in the which God hath made us free”? (Alma 61:9) Just as with the war in heaven, I think the time is coming when there can be no fence-sitters.

    • scootd28 says:

      Great question, Rex!

    • Greg says:

      The question is moot, for God waited until after the RevWar on purpose. He spent centuries and inspired many good people to prepare the minds and this nation where the Gospel could be restored.

    • GraceTruth says:

      Yes, it is a wonderful incisive question, great question. Answer: The Founding Father’s did not have a living Prophet to guide them but we do. The Founding Fathers sought God’s will and together decided to stand and fight and that was “after” some people had been killed and it appeared that it was going to get worse. The odds were not in their favor just like today but the huge difference was they were fighting on their own land here in America while the Brits were not familiar with this land and could easily get lost in it. Colonists could hide easily also. Today’s world is so different with satellites, id cards, bank tracking, cameras on highways, Bombs, Weapons of Mass Destruction. Totally different. Odds are not in the favor presently for winning any revolution.

      • Greg says:

        There is a huge difference between legal and lawful! Legal simply means that the legislature (State or Federal) passed some legislation. Lawful means that it is Constitutional. Because of the rate at which they make “laws” and the cost of challenging their Constitutionality, it is almost impossible to keep up with them.
        Now days we hardly ever are presented with lawful “laws” and are inundated with legal “laws”. The “Separation of Powers” the Founding Fathers gave us has been trampled on by Judiciary Activism and Executive Orders. You have to decide for yourself if you are bound by unconstitutional legalese (bad laws) or if you are going to stay true to our founding principles. (good laws)

        • Greg says:

          I am somewhat dismayed at what appears to be a lack of faith when we are willing to accept that because the “government” has superior arms that we should then just succumb. With God anything is possible and either we ignorantly support “Secret Combinations” or “Gaddianton Robbers” of our day or we live as if everything depends upon us, and pray as if everything depends on the Lord.

  9. Mike Carter says:

    I think that is why DC 134:8 distinguishes “laws” from “good laws.” While we believe in being subject to man’s laws we would not let obedience to “laws” keep us from the higher call to be obedient to God’s laws.

    The older I get the more perfect the Church (and it’s scriptures) are proven to be.

  10. jpv says:

    “Any man who will not fight for his wife and children is a coward and a bastard.”
    –Joseph the Seer

    (An American Prophet’s Record: The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith, p. 298.)

    • Laurie says:

      Joseph Smith spoke the truth and I appreciate that so much. i am so sick of people and politicians who choose “politiacl correctness” over truth. I highly recommend to anyone still thinking some of us are being “paranoid” or falling for “conspiracy theories” please watch the movie Agenda: Grinding America Down to see how deep Satan’s tenacles are entwined into every aspect of our lives.Agenda 21 is a methodical, total destruction of our agency. I first stumbled onto these (not-so secret anymore) plans to destroy life, liberty, property, health, through investigation of orthodox medicine. Soon my eyes were opened to all the other interconnected “secret combinations”. Please share this movie with everyone. Search ponder and pray. Resist evil or it prospers.

    • GraceTruth says:

      That’s if they are being attacked correct? If they are not being attacked however and we stand up to rebel then they will be attacked and killed along with those who fight those who now have bombs and huge weapons of destruction. Those did not exist in Joseph’s day out west which is why defending with guns against guns worked. Shouldn’t we listen to the modern day prophet now regarding our modern day problems? He and the Apostles continually state to obey the laws of the land and to plan our lives and have families and go to school in spite of all the evil around us. Giving up on our righteous goals and just preparing for a battle is not the Lord’s plan. We are to use legal means to fight for our rights and not start a battle for we will lose in this modern techy day

      • Greg says:

        Anyone willing to do their own research will find that what the Founding Fathers gave us has been put on the shelf and replaced with a “Corporate U.S.” United States Code 28, sec. 3200 if I remember correctly defines “United States” as a Federal Corporation.
        Starting with the “Reconstruction Act of 1791” and finished off with the bankruptcy declared by FDR in 1933 and removing us from the gold standard by Nixon has replaced our Constitutional Republic with a Corporate Democracy! You will notice that the states are no longer Utah, New York, etc. but are The State of Utah, and The State of New York etc. “The State of” is the corporation and all the regulations, codes and rules are for corporations. By fraud and deceit they trick you into volunteering into their system!

        • Robin Hood says:

          You’re right on the money my friend. In fact, the USA is nothing other than the Virginia Company under a different name. It is a corporate organisation, plain and simple, always has been.
          The same is true of my country to a great extent.

  11. Ricky says:

    In regards to the question, ‘why will the inhabitants of Zion be terrible to the wicked? Will it be their armies or will it be the power of God?’. Most of the previously mentioned references of armies have been from ancient Israel or from book of Mormon times. It is important to note that in neither of those times had they established Zion. Moses tried to establish a Zion but the people refused and feared. I think that the best way to know by what power Zion will be protected would be to look at the only other recorded case in the history of our world where Zion was actually established. That would be the City of Enoch. It seems logical that the events surrounding the creation and protection of that Zion will be similar to the events surrounding our Zion.

  12. jeri mork says:

    On this I agree with you Ezra. I recall about a year ago in Norway there was the slaughter of about 90 children because they did not believe in having guns in the little camp situated on an Island!! they could not defend the children. the murderer just kept firing and firing.!! And just a couple of years ago in Mexico a small group of Mormons, I believe of the LeBaron family, had guns taken from them by the authorities and the next day the Mexican mafia came and raped the women and killed many of the men. Heavenly Father expects us to be ‘wise as serpents”. Be ready to defend your lives and your family. That is what I truly believe.

    • GraceTruth says:

      I agree we need to have guns to defend our families but it sounds like the government is much different in those countries than here meaning that they are in a more advanced state of loss of rights and privileges and it seems that we will come to that here as well. The point is, at what point does one decide to fight back with guns against the powers that be for to do so is to surely die for they have the gun power to annihilate anyone who tries. It seems inevitable that sooner or later we may die a horrible death due to lack of guns by renegades or else by fed’l gov’t if they choose to stop anyone who refuses to give up their guns. Darned if you do and Darned if you don’t obviously. It’s a”Lose/lose situation”.Lord tells Prophets when to fight as a people.

  13. Laurie says:

    I am jealous of all you who live in areas with many LDS members. I live in New York State….home of the “SAFE Act”. Be lieve me, I do NOT feel safe knowing that we are one of the first states to pass an unconstitutional law that will make it easy for our government to force us to do whatever they declare is for “the common good” (in their arrogant opinion). We already saw how they so easily trashed our agency when NY allowed hospitals and employers to force nurses and doctors to get the Swine Flu shot or LOSE THEIR JOBS! here in New York “Might is Right” and sin and unrighteous dominion abounds. What states besides Utah Idaho and Arizona are safe places for the saints ….and has jobs? Seriously…I am considering moving, but need ideas.

    • GraceTruth says:

      Google, Montana and employment. I heard they were having a upswing there with more jobs becoming available. I’ve also heard that our country has oil wells all over the place and we’re going to have a lot of manufacturing of oil barrels and diesel trucks to carry the oil. Stansberry report tells of this and says to invest in those two assets rather than in oil companies btw.
      Stansberry is favored by Alex Jones who shares Tea Party views and favors 2nd amendment support and I only recently heard Alex for the first time and I liked him a lot. I ordered Stansberry’s report but found it had tons of leads to order other investor’s reports, a bit of a scam I thought but he does offer tons of archived reports/good info. He says our economy will improve by 2015 due to oil.

    • GraceTruth says:

      Pray, go to Temple, get priesthood blessing, read your scriptures expecting to find an answer . Ask Lord to guide you as to how to move out there if it is His will for you and would be good for you to do so. Sometimes we are needed in the Lord’s vineyard elsewhere than in Happy Valley:) I heard the Lord in my mind in Celestial Room “Go to Family Search for an interview”. I gave half of my things to the saints and put some in storage for $80/mo. & shipped out lg priority mail pkgs but next time I’ll rent a 1,500.00 POD and have it moved that way. First night there, I got an apt. and the next day an entire apt full of furniture for 120.00 Miracles of faith and missions! I drove out; stayed with a friend at first, I have a fixed modest income/retired.Util & rent LOW!

    • jeri mork says:

      Ir’s not so great out here in California, lots of members, but the government is mostly democratic, and most are liberals, we are outnumbered and even among members there is a lack of interest in what is going on with the government. I really don’t know if there is a perfect place to be……. jeri

  14. Greg says:

    It is my humble opinion that in the days and trials ahead it will take both types of Saints to accomplish preparation for the coming of the Lord. Those who will in faith take up the sword, and those who will in faith not take up the sword!

    • scootd28 says:

      Very interesting comment, Greg. It has “the ring of truth”.

      • GraceTruth says:

        I’m with Greg and Scootd.
        Every situation, time, event has its own determining factors. What was suggested and done in the 1800’s was due to an onslaught of terror with guns against the Saints. Of course, they fought back or they would have died. The point was to stay alive and not be killed. Following that theme, we don’t bring on the fire but quench it or at least don’t throw gasoline on it by revolting about a law that speaks volumes of revolutionary attitude; that would be suicide and they’d come after the Saints then with guns. One day if they do single us out, we’d not win anyway against tanks and planes realistically. Christians will have to be willing to have their heads lopped off one day to defend Christ/Zion correct? We may be some of those, inevitably?

      • GraceTruth says:

        Yes, I am impressed with the wisdom in that statement also; wonderful comment!

  15. Our church was built on the usage of guns. See:
    http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Martyrdom/Joseph_fired_a_gun

    History of the Church:

    “In the meantime Joseph, Hyrum, and Elder Taylor had their coats off. Joseph sprang to his coat for his six-shooter, Hyrum for his single barrel, Taylor for Markham’s large hickory cane, and Dr. Richards for Taylor’s cane. All sprang against the door, the balls whistled up the stairway, and in an instant one came through the door.
    Joseph Smith, John Taylor and Dr. Richards sprang to the left of the door, and tried to knock aside the guns of the ruffians…
    Joseph reached round the door casing, and discharged his six shooter into the passage, some barrels missing fire. Continual …

    (Preach against guns at your own peril!)

    • GraceTruth says:

      Personally, I myself, preach for guns however, I am a realist.
      Things have gotten so out of hand now that if anyone resists the gov’t when they come to take the guns it will end up in civil war and the gov’t with the standing army and planes will win, obviously? Correct? So, one has to decide. Do I live under tyranny as it slowly comes upon me or do I sacrifice the lives of myself and children to fight against an inevitable outcome. The Fed’l Gov’t already has more power than it should have; we are a bit too late and things are lining up for the 2nd coming. Staying alive we can accomplish more Temple work and live baptisms and isn’t that why we are here and treasure what limited freedom we still have? So, should we just die and cross over sooner than later? I say, no

    • GraceTruth says:

      Edward, I see your point and defend the 2nd amendment and have used guns for years. I see the wisdom in using a gun when being attacked with guns in the 1800s but I don’t think it is wisdom when not being attacked with a gun to stand in front an officer or military man who has one and who does not intend to kill me but wants to take away my gun/s. It may sound like giving up and setting myself up for being mowed down later. I realize that however, to stand up to someone with a gun who has more guns and more power is to “die by the gun” so how is having a gun in that situation going to save my life. The point is to save our lives right? So, initially we may have to give up our guns to save our lives and in the end die by their guns later possibly if the Lord “delays”.

      • “I have sworn in my wrath, and decreed wars upon the face of the earth, and the wicked shall slay the wicked, and fear shall come upon every man; AND THE SAINTS ALSO SHALL HARDLY ESCAPE… Wherefore, seeing that I, the Lord, have decreed all these things upon the face of the earth, I will that my saints should be assembled upon the land of Zion; And that every man should take righteousness in his hands and faithfulness upon his loins, and lift a WARNING VOICE unto the inhabitants of the earth; and declare BOTH BY WORD AND BY FLIGHT that desolation shall come upon the wicked.” D&C 63:33-37

        The Lord has told us how to flee:

        “Go ye out of Babylon; Gather ye out from among the nations, from one end of heaven to the other.” D&C 133:7

        • I am still wondering WHERE TO FLEE TO! I have my bug-out bag all packed, and it seems to be nothing more than a BUG-IN BAG! Utah, Idaho, etc will be overwhelmed as soon as the “big-event” happens. Utah can barely take care of it’s own let alone 5-10 million more running- and-hiding-and scared-to-death Saints.

          Stand and fight? No, it would be more wise to flee, as the D&C admonishes… but to where? That, dear GraceTruth is the million dollar question!

  16. Ashley Jette says:

    I think the obsession with self protection is largely a romanticized American philosophy, rather than an LDS one. Many people try to marry the church to the American culture, but as an LDS person from a country who has strict gun laws, I think we are more subject to our socialization within our nation’s cultures than we like to admit, because to people who are not inculcated with the Second Amendment as being a fundamental right (myself being one of them) have a very difficult time understanding the US infatuation with guns. I could seek out many quotes of prophets from other time periods which may not apply to our current society.

  17. GraceTruth says:

    Hello Saints,
    I am LDS and I have a gun license from a state that requires licensing.
    I believe in the 2nd amendment and loved Charlton Heston’s resolve about having the courage to hold onto his gun until it is taken from his “cold dead hands”. This was an accurate statement because if the law is overturned in Utah this would be total suicide. The Church leaders I am sure are aware of this fact. We would become a target for the Fed’l Gov’t and appear as revolters or revolutionaries. It would be like asking for a confrontation or war and it would certainly end up with the saints dying with their guns in their hands. Look at the odds.
    So, what should we do? Articles of Faith states that we “Obey the laws of the land”. In 1800’s Saints were already at war=difference.

  18. Alan says:

    Wheat and tares. Those who believe in guns (the arm of flesh) are the tares. It really is that simple.

    • Greg says:

      That might be a possibility, but with all the quotes by Prophets, Seers, and Revelators along with scripture supporting the tares being the wicked. Nowhere do I remember any reference to the tares being those willing to take up arms. Throughout all of sacred history it appears that the Lord has always supported the DEFENSE of life and liberty, so I would have to question that interpretation. By grace are we saved only after all we can do” It is true that the Lord has intervened at times in the fight for life and liberty, (and I expect He will again) but only after his followers have done all that they can do.

    • Sam says:

      What a strange concept with absolutely no scriptural or doctrinal support.

    • scootd28 says:

      Alan, if you’ve read this whole string, you will know that I basically agree with you, although I personally would stop short of condemning others to the fate of “the tares”. While it may be that simple in principle, it is not that simple, at least historically, in practice. In D&C 63:31 the Lord tells the saints that it is forbidden for them to shed blood. Sounds pretty clear, and I do believe that ultimately this is the principle we are commanded to aspire to. However, there have been times throughout the saints’ history when they did resort to bloodshed….

    • scootd28 says:

      In the same section (63) the Lord declares that even HE renders unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s. While this doesn’t mean that He is condoning bloodshed, it does suggest that even He is willing to yield temporarily and with expediency to the forces that govern the earth. Personally – I believe in guns (they certainly do exist) but I anticipate the day when we are able to exercise the priesthood with such power that they are no longer necessary. I firmly believe that is ultimately what the Lord would have us do. I DO NOT believe, as some have declared, that those who choose not to use guns will be condemned as cowards or “girlie men” (LOL). It takes more courage to trust in the Lord and eschew violence than it does to protect one’s self with violence.

    • Douglas says:

      Alan, that is a foolish and self-righteous perspective. Being armed is no more “trusting in the arm of flesh” than is locking one’s door or contracting a security service. Our Heavenly Father, creating us in His image, put functional grey matter between our ears, so we might employ it to devise tools and implements of both creation, and, where needed destruction. I recall no directive to refrain from lawful defense of our own persons or our loved ones, but to merely lay down and hope that somehow the Lord would send His angels to protect us.
      True, no matter how well-armed and proficient one is, there’s always someone with greater firepower. Just as we are “saved by grace, after all we can do”, we likewise importune our Lord to protect us where our efforts fail.

  19. Alan says:

    When I say wheat and tares I am referring to those who believe Christ (not just in him) and those who don’t.
    He has said he will fight our battles, he has told us not to live by the sword, he has told us not to trust in the arm of flesh and it is he who admonished us to love our enemies and to turn the other cheek.
    If we truly believe him we will place our trust in him. If we have reservations we’ll trust in something else.
    I feel no need to carry any weapon. If someone wants to kill me, they can. I’m certainly not going to stop them by killing them.

    • Sam says:

      Alan, do you follow this same philosophy in your food storage? I don’t. I make every precaution to prepare for my future and part of that is to provide for the protection of my family. As James tells us, “faith without works is dead.”

      • scootd28 says:

        c’mon Sam. Food storage doesn’t kill or harm anyone.

        • Sam says:

          The principle remains. In The Family; A Proclamation to the World, we are given the charge to protect our families. In an increasingly dangerous world, that means having the tools and skills to do so.

          BTW, the Savior frequently told his disciples to carry arms. Even Peter was frequently armed in His presence as illustrated by his attacking those who arrested the Savior.

          • scootd28 says:

            Sam – that is fine. The Savior Himself submitted to the horrors of the telestial world that He condescended to. I still maintain that nobody except Alan seems to understand that this discussion is that there will be a terrestrial law also – and I, at least, anticipate that, and refuse to be blinded by the necessities imposed upon us by this telestial existence.

  20. Burn says:

    A Mormon Proverb says:

    “God can use a thunderstorm. Or Portor Rockwell”

  21. Kevin says:

    Why does the decision to arm have to be all of us or none of us? It seems to me that we are all provided gifts, in this case some as armed protectors and others of us as peacemakers.

    The one question I always ask someone who is thinking of arming themselves is “if an armed and uniformed person came to your door with the intent of doing harm to you or your family could you shoot that person? What would you see in that person, a menace to or something else?” If they answer that they could not shoot them because they remind of their son, or any other answer that indicates that they could not shoot, or would hesitate to shoot, I advise them to not arm themselves and to stand under the protection of someone who would shoot without hesitation. To each their gifts.

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