Sacred Cow #7: The Church is the Kingdom of God

What is a sacred cow?  My definition is anything that is believed based only on tradition, and has little to zero basis on actual fact. These beliefs are held so strongly that the “worshiper” declares “blasphemy!” to anyone that challenges said belief.

Sacred Cow #7: The Church is the Kingdom of God

The purpose of this article is not to explain in detail what the “Kingdom of God” is (that would take much longer) but to show the fallacy of the idea that the Church and the Kingdom of God are one and the same. They are in fact, distinct and separate organizations.

Admittedly, the terms “Church” and “Kingdom of God” have been used interchangeably since the very beginning of the Restoration, which has caused this misconception. Church leaders have discussed the incorrect mixing of the two:

“We are asked, Is the Church of God, and the Kingdom of God the same organization – and we are informed that some of the brethren hold that they are separate. This is the correct view to take. The Kingdom of God is a separate organization from the Church of God. There may be men acting as officers of the Kingdom of God who will not be members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” (George Q. Cannon, History of the Church 7:381-2)

Since there are individuals acting as officers of the “Kingdom” that are not members of the Church, they are clearly separate organizations.

Brigham Young explained:

“This (the Church) is what we are in the habit of calling the Kingdom of God, but there are further organizations. The Prophet gave the full and complete organization to this kingdom the spring before he was killed. The kingdom is the Kingdom Daniel spoke of, which was to be set up in the last days… I shall not read you the names of the member of this kingdom, neither shall I read to you its constitution; but the constitution was given by revelation” Journal of Discourses 17:156

That same revelation that gave the constitution of this Kingdom revealed the complete name of the kingdom to the Prophet Joseph Smith:

“The Kingdom of God and His Laws, With the Keys and Power Thereof, and Judgment in the Hands of His Servants, Ahman Christ,” (William Clayton Journal, 1 January 1845)

Further explaining the false merging of the two terms and then explaining the distinction, John Taylor said:

“God has established His Church, and we sometimes say His kingdom. What do we mean by the Kingdom of God?… There is the Church of God and the Kingdom of God. The Church of course, refers more particularly to spiritual things, and the kingdom to temporal rule and government and management and to temporal affairs.” (Journal of Discourses 20:166)

The scriptures teach the fact that they are separate organizations as well. We read in the Joseph Smith translation of the book of Revelation, chapter 12:

1) And there appeared a great sign in heaven, in the likeness of things on the earth; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.

2) And the woman being with child, cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3) And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and his throne.

4) And there appeared another sign in heaven; and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman which was delivered, ready to devour her child after it was born.

5) And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore years.

6) And there was war in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought against Michael;

7) And the dragon prevailed not against Michael, neither the child, nor the woman which was the church of God, who had been delivered of her pains, and brought forth the kingdom of our God and his Christ.

8) Neither was there place found in heaven for the great dragon, who was cast out; that old serpent called the devil, and also called Satan, which deceiveth the whole world; he was cast out into the earth; and his angels were cast out with him.

9) And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ;

Here again we see that the Church (the mother) and the Kingdom (the child) are represented and shown to be two separate entities.

The mother is the Church of Christ, the child is the Kingdom of God. Who is the father?  For more information on the structure and activities of the Kingdom under Joseph Smith, check out the newly published Joseph Smith Papers project, Administrative Records: Council of Fifty Minutes.

You can also find a proposed Constitution of the Kingdom of God to display in your home here http://www.ebay.com/itm/112469285759?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649

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68 Responses to Sacred Cow #7: The Church is the Kingdom of God

  1. Raphael says:

    Who is the Father?

  2. Brian says:

    Ya, who is the father!?

  3. Katie Moore says:

    Since the scriptures clearly teach that Jesus is the Bridegroom to the Bride (the Church), my assumption was that since the woman in Revelations is also the Church, it is Jesus who is the Father of the Kingdom of God.

  4. TAO says:

    The Father?

  5. Brian says:

    Ezra must be holding out on us to share his thoughts, on who the Father is, in an upcoming article.

  6. Jared says:

    The church’s official “Guide to the Scriptures” provides workable definitions of gospel terms. It is by no means the final definitive doctrinal authority on gospel terms. Most gospel terms can be viewed from multiple perspectives and multiple depths. The definition given here is a very simplified definition. I think Ezra’s article is working at a much deeper level.

    Just like the word “faith” can actually be used to describe a variety of concepts, likewise the Kingdom of God is also a term used to denote several conditions.

    Right now The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints can technically be called the Kingdom of God because its officers hold the keys of the that kingdom, but those keys are mostly dormant and that political kingdom is far from organized.

    ZION is a perfect merger between a fully organized Spiritual Kingdom of God and Political Kingdom of God. Obviously, that does not exist on this earth right now.

    • Rob Osborn says:

      Ok, for the sake of the debate lets discount the official church’s Guide to the Scriptures. So, what about the scripture I listed? It specifically states that the “kingdom of God” is being set up on the earth by our church. Forget any deeper meanins here- there is only “one” kingdom of God.

      • Brian says:

        If you read above in Joseph Smith’s translation of the Bible, in the book of Revelation (and elsewhere) it is clear that the Mother is the Church and she brought forth the Child which is the Kingdom of God… two separate entities, yet part of the same family, and both working to further God’s will.

        • Rob Osborn says:

          Yeah, didn’t you get it- The church brought forth the kingdom of God on earth. So, the kingdom of God exists on the earth.

          Let’s be realistic here. The kingdom of God is already on the earth- it is spreading out upon the face thereof. Joseph Smith said that wherever the priesthood exists and functions you will find the kingdom of God. That “kingdom” is within the church.

          Not too hard to figure out.

          JMHO.

  7. Paul Olsen says:

    Is the “church” true? Or is the Gospel true? Should the “church” be the center of our lives? Or should the Gospel of Jesus Christ be the Center?

  8. G. Michael Craig says:

    I choose to believe that those closest to Joseph Smith were better informed on matters of doctrine than subsequent leaders. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, and George Q. Cannon all said that there would be no religious qualifications for either being a member of the Kingdom of God, or even to serve in a leadership capacity. And the more I see active temple recommend-holding LDS practicing and teaching socialism, while persecuting those who teach and hold fast to the precepts of liberty and good government found in the Book of Mormon, the easier it is for me to believe that these earlier prophets were telling the truth about this matter. I cannot believe that the socialist faculty members at BYU, all of whom were undoubtedly bishops and stake presidents if not apostles, who finally succeeded in getting H. Verlan Andersen kicked off the faculty because he opposed socialism and taught from the Book of Mormon, will be found worthy of admittance as members of the Kingdom of God, no matter how you define it. Previously, President David O. McKay had fired those BYU faculty members and administrative staff who would not agree to stop teaching socialism. But such a correction cannot happen now because the tares are too firmly rooted, as President Benson stated. Consequently, BYU and the Church in general are rife with satanic socialist ideology, exactly as was the case among the Nephites in Helaman’s day(Helaman 6:38-39). Then, as now, crooked individuals were supported for public office based solely on their promises to provide “spoils” to the people, with little or no consideration being given to their moral character or proven committment to the Constitution. LDS who make this same mistake today are acting contrary to Christ, are therefore anti-Christs, and cannot possibly be worthy of membership in the Kingdom of God, while non-members who reject socialism and hold fast to Constitutional principles will be worthy of admittance, just as these earlier prophets stated. Too many of us are putting our eggs in the wrong basket, that basket being our membership in the Church. One after another, we stand at the pulpit on Fast Sunday and say “I know this Church is True”, “I know this Church is True”, “I know this Church is True”. Shades of the Zoramites at the Rameumtom. I have never heard anyone, other than myself, say “I know Christ. I have been born again. I no longer have any desire to harm another, regardless of whether he lives here or in Iraq or Afganistan, and I absolutely will not steal my neighbors property by way of government subsidies like social security, medicare, medicaid, food stamps, AFDC, etc, which every prophet from Joseph Smith to Ezra Taft Benson condemned. John Taylor said the description of the scene on judgement day in Matthew 7:21-23, applies exclusively to LDS Melchezidek priesthood holders, especially seventies and high priests. President Benson said essentially the same thing about the Parable Of The Ten Virgins. All of which means just what Paul, King Benjamin, Mormon, Moroni, Joseph Smith and those closest to him said it means, namely, that our particular religious affiliation won’t mean squat in determining worthiness for membership in the Kingdom of God or on judgement day if we have failed to be born again, i.e., failed to develop a sufficient understanding of and comittment to the principle of charity, the pure love of Christ, and it’s sister principle, that of agency.

    • Rob Osborn says:

      Whoa there! Although I don’t agree with some of the teachings being taught at BYU (evolutionary biology for one), I highly doubt they are socialists.

      There are some in the church who need to change their hypocritical attitudes towards the government who provide social services for it’s citizens. People like you have forgotten that the roads you drive to work on everyday comes from the exact same source that goes also to help feed the poor and clothe the naked!

      • G. Michael Craig says:

        Rob, you don’t understand. You need to get a better understanding of Helaman 6:38-39. Moroni warned us that the same kind of secret combination that became “the sole management of the government” among the Nephites will be among us today, and that we “shall(must) awake to a sense of our awful situation…” Verse 38 makes it clear that the Nephites supported these monsters because they “partook of their spoils” and thus became dependent upon them. Todays spoils include social security, medicare, medicaid, food stamps, AFDC, WIC, etc. The secret combination running our government today steals the funds necessary to provide these spoils by such forced takings as income taxes, inheritance taxes, sales taxes, etc, exactly as the secret combination in Helaman’s day provided spoils by stealing them from others. Like the Nephites, we stupidly support these low-lifes because their spoils are more important to us than our liberty is, so we don’t concern ourselves with the moral character of a particular politician, only that he promises to continue the spoils, or better yet, increase them. Thus, we end up with politicians who are more like an organized crime family than true statesmen. Sure, they build roads and feed the poor, but only after siphoning off about 75% of the forced takings in waste, fraud, and incompetence, and then rewarding themselves with handsome pay raises and million dollar pensions, living like kings and queens at the expense of the very people they claim to be compassionate towards. Besides, the roads I drive on are paid for and maintained mostly through road use excise taxes, not so-called income taxes which fund the interest on the money the government borrows each year to fund all the social welfare programs. There can be no question but that socialism is satanic because the Lord spoke through every prophet of this dispensation from Joseph to Thomas condemning the practice. For example, Harold B. Lee said “Government subsidies are NOT THE LORD’S WAY”! Then whose way are they? Which side are you on?

        • Rob Osborn says:

          You obviously have a very distorted view of our country. The social service programs run by our government are not satanic in any manner. If Satan were really in control he would starve the poor, stone the prophets and literally enslave the working class and poor. That is ahrdly the case at all. If anything it is about as far removed from Satan as is singing Christmans carrols is as removed from Satan.

          Has it ever dawned on you that perhaps the BoM prophets were trying to warn the gentiles in Mexico and other south of the border countries against corruption and crime rings infiltrating the governments? What do we see in Mexico today in large areas of their country? The government there is being taken over by the drug cartels and crime rings. Corruption runs rampant there. Countries like Colombia are so far in trouble with the corruption of governement officials it’s not even funny. Could perhaps, the BoM be speaking specifically to the people in these countries?

          Everyone wants to keep pounding on America and it’s social services as being some evil conspiracy. You know what? If you are so removed from our system of trying to help out others, move to Mexico.

          • James says:

            Rob, I understand that you think it is worse in Mexico and other banana republics because your right it is worse. But how did they get there? Socialism. They have long standing socialism that feeds the elite more and more power like G michael Craig posted above and creates essentially a ponzi scheme. The poor become more and more dependent on the subsidies while the elite sipon more and more off for themselves and bring more and more poverty as they loot “the rich”. Eventually they are exposed for what they are as organized legalized CRIME. Those countries are lost to the Gadiantons. They will only be reclaimed when their systems collapse and innocents suffer because of the blindness and greed of their ancestors. But in the end the Lord will have a humble people.
            I know you don’t mean to sound arrogant to think that somehow it will be different here but you do. It is pure Hubris to think that we can ignore the prophetic utterances against socialism and somehow strike the right balance so that we can keep our socialism running as we believe they were intended. The Lord knows how things will or will not work out decades and centuries in advance. To oppose him in this is folly as counseling the Lord is always folly. We need to stop trying to convince the Lord that he has it wrong and get humble enough to listen to him. We each need to make that choice individually. Socialism is the “arm of flesh”. We can’t put our trust in it and be surprised when the Lord tells us that we never knew him. We need to trust him implicitly. You can’t go wrong doing that.
            I can start using a drug now that gives me euphoria’s and no apparent bad consequences. But I can look at others who ahve done so and see that eventually they cause pure destruction and heartache. I can ignore that and tell my Dad he crazy drugs are great I don’t see any problem its going great now and they help me cope with stress. But eventually I would know he was right from the start. Look at the countries your calling worse and you will see they are ahead of us in corruption and destruction but it all started with lying or well meaning political lips that convinced the people to give their liberty over for some socialized food stamps type programs, health care, housing, farming. Until the elites owned everything and the people nothing but dependent on the elites for any scrap of food under the table.

          • Matthew Thompson says:

            Rob, Ether Chapter 8 clearly states it is a worldwide conspiracy, not just a south american conspiracy or a mexico conspiracy. It is worldwide including the USA. Wake up man!

      • Pat says:

        Roads deal with infrastructure and don’t belong in the same conversation as “social services.” Therefore, no hypocrisy. But you knew that, already.

    • Absolutely True. You cannot serve god and mammon.

  9. G. Michael Craig says:

    Rob, you don’t understand. The Jaredites and the Nephites both migrated into North America. There is not one word in the BOM restricting the warnings there to only South and Central America. The government program here of helping the poor is a smokescreen. It’s purpose is to create dependency, not help anybody. Dependency robs us of our agency. Everything Satan does is geared toward destroying agency, just as in the pre-mortal life. Besides, the drug cartels south of our border are no different in purpose, and sometimes no different in methodology either, from the drug cartels running our government. While Bill Clinton was attorney general and later governor of Arkansas for example, he imported tons of Columbian cocaine into Arkansas through the Mena airport. He continued this practice as president, just as did Papa Bush and “W”. I have a close personal friend who recently retired after 35 years with the CIA. He is a temple recommend holding elder. Believe me when I tell you that the CIA brings more cocaine into America than all the so-called drug lords put together. You need to get acquainted with Catherine Austin Fitts, former assistant secretary of HUD under Pappa Bush. There were 5 attempts on her life when she discovered that HUD was actually a money laundering operation for Columbian cocaine, as is the Stock Market, where fully a third of all money invested there is laundered narco profits. You remind me of the old saying “Ignorance is bliss”.

    • Rob Osborn says:

      It’s hardly ignorance. It’s called actually having “facts” to back up claims. A lot of people on here speak of “agency” and yet not very many understand what it really means and what the war in heaven was really fought over. Because of this people incorrectly apply it to institutions on the earth. Let’s speak for a minute about “dependency” and social organizations. Are you dependent upon the electricity wired into your house? What about the water service you enjoy- are you dependent upon it? What about the internet? We can speak of many things that we as a society have become dependent upon. Social dependencies, or dependencies in general are what makes life for us easier and in many ways actually increases our freedom. Let’s take a minute at the church’s social system. The church offers to feed and clothe the poor. They also help with paying bills, and taking care of those who can’t help themselves. In every system, including the church you are going to have your loafers- those who are lazy or who just don’t get it. The church, nevertheless still helps out regardless of peoples personal situations or circumstances. This in no way destroys agency. Some in the church are dependent upon the welfare system for support. Some have had bad circumstances, accidents, or plain just bad luck. Yes, they become dependent upon the social services the church offers. Does that destroy their agency? In no way does it! In fact it actually opens up more avenues for them and actually increases their opportunities for freedom and self preservence.

      Now what was the war in heaven really fought over? Was it “agency”. Well, that depends upon how one wants to define the word and correctly apply it. When the scriptures mention agency, it is used in the context of the freedom to act in righteousness according to just and holy principles. Any act not in compliance to the eternal just principles in place places one in jeopardy of losing that very right to freely act for themselves. What this means is that basically through disobedience to eternal principle and law, one loses his or her agency. So when Satan sought to destroy the agency of man what it meant is that he wanted man to act according to his or her own natural and carnal desires. The problem here is that acting in this manner destroys ones priveledge to freely act within the kingdom- to basically lose ones gift of agency. Satan had no intention of being the savior whose job it is to save “all” that the Father gives him to save. All Satan wanted was the gift of an immortal body which holds the power itself of God himself. If one were to read in Moses ch. 4 they would see that those who choose to follow Satan lose their agency being led “captive” by “his will” down to hell to not “act for themselves” but instead to be “acted upon” by the demands of justice and eternal law. There is a reason why sinful (natural) natures lead to what it is called in the scriptures- “the chains of hell”. Those chains are what destroys agency. It is only through a true and proper savior that we are released from those chains so that we can once again excersize the gift of agency. This tells us something vital about “agency” itself. It tells us that agency is in fact a “priveledge” that is only excersized and maintained through righteous decisions. Choosing good decisions opens up more opportunities for more choices and thus more freedom.

      Satan is still fighting the same exact battle- not one thing has changed! He is still trying to destroy mans agency by getting them to fall prey to their own carnal natural natures and thus into a life of sin and eventually he secures the same chains of hell that he himself is in around our souls from which without Christ, there is no escape! His most effective tool on the earth right now for destroying agency is probably the degradation of moral standards and pornography. Alongside with this he also uses the harmful and highly addictive natures of narcotics and alcohol abuse. He also uses any situation that stirs up mens hearts to anger, contention, and hatred.

      I can guarentee you that Satan is not working his plans in the food stamp government division of our country. Neither is he working in the medicaid department, social security etc!!!

      People need to wake up to where his main front really is- it’s in the pornography industry, the illegal drug industry, etc.

      • James says:

        Rob,
        I don’t disagree with the later part of your post but I do with this portion.

        “In every system, including the church you are going to have your loafers- those who are lazy or who just don’t get it. The church, nevertheless still helps out regardless of peoples personal situations or circumstances. This in no way destroys agency.”

        Loafers do not get assistance from the church if the leadership knows and understands the welfare principles. I work with a Bishop right now that did not understand the principles for 3 years and was “helping financially” regardless of the individuals efforts to change. He noticed that these people never changed and were stuck in a rut and generally miserable. Of the 6 chronic hardship cases most were also suffering spiritually from the constant stress of not making ends meet. Prayer, and counseling about the matter brought us to the principles of the welfare program and to realize that he had been inappropriately “helping” without expecting anything in return for the benefit of the people not the church really. Once he started having them bring their budgets in and expecting them to come and help clean the chapel or do a shift at DI the number miracles started to happen. A couple made adjustments to their life on their own and get independent just as soon as they had to and were much happier for it. another couple stayed on assistance from the church while working the program and helping with service projects etc. They fairly rapidly(with 12 months) had increased their self esteem and independence enough to went themselves off the assistance and become gainfully employed. It was a miracle for their whole family’s as they became active and partook more fully of the feast at the Lord’s table. The other two found another teet to depend upon and are sadly just where they have always been. miserably stuck in a rut. One of them getting so much worse that she lost her children. It was heart breaking to watch. The Bishop went as far to help as hosting these sweet children as a foster parent to give the parent more time to improve but that time never came. Here we are several years later and nothing ahs changed for this famiyl other than they are split up and in a deeper rut. So yet the Lord’s way is much better than doing it on our own. He know how to really help people longterm.
        The Lord’s

        • Rob Osborn says:

          I will agree that the church’s system is much better than the governments. I am all for a major reform of the government welfare system. Social programs, as I was pointing out, do not destroy ones agency- that was my main point.

          • James says:

            The only reform they need is a return to the government the Lord established under the constitution that does not include socialism but abhors it.
            Well if your love of the government enforced “social programs” is dearer to you than the counsel of the Lord you have that right, but as a brother I simply warn you too not ignore the Lord or his prophets because his ways are higher than our ways and his wisdom higher than ours(paraphrase).

            “As citizens of this noble land, we have marched a long way down the soul-destroying road of socialism… If we continue to follow the trend in which we are heading today, two things will inevitably result: first, a loss of our personal freedom, and second, financial bankruptcy. This is the price we pay when we turn away from God and the principles which he has taught and turn to government to do everything for us. It is the formula by which nations become enslaved.” Ezra Taft Benson
            http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6162

            Personally I thank thee O God for all prophets who fear not to tell us the truth. God bless Pres. Benson for making it so explicitly clear in our day so that we would not ignorantly err. But of course we reserve the right to simply stone\ignore the prophets in light of our own superior wisdom on these matters. But I personally have found this approach to bring me nothing but heartache.
            Please don’t take offense to these comments but take them with the brotherly love that they were intended.

          • Matthew Thompson says:

            What do you think taxes are. They are force. They destroy your agency. You are forced to pay them. This is socialism. Wake up man!

  10. Dennis Gorgoglione says:

    The contention here really needs to stop.

    First, the Church of Jesus Christ is ultimately instituted in Heaven, where it retreated during the great apostasy, as we read in Revelation 12. The Kingdom of God, or the Kingdom of Heaven, is the Church of Jesus Christ established on the earth. Ultimately, the Church/Kingdom will be both ecclesiastical and political in nature. Non-members will be officers in the government, but the prophet — under Jesus Christ — will be the ultimate authority, both ecclesiastically and politically.

    Second, everything in the Book of Mormon is meant to apply to the whole world, but particularly to the United States. The Church’s social services cannot be compared to the government’s social services. The Church’s social services are paid for by voluntary donations; the government’s social services are paid for by legalized theft. The Church’s social services are designed to help people out of poverty and into independence; the government’s social services are designed to keep people dependent and trapped in the system, and ultimately to enslave them. Trust me, I’ve seen it. God, through the Church of His Son, is behind the Church’s program. Satan, through modern-day secret combinations (Council on Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission, World Economic Forum, Fabianism, socialism, communism, secular humanism, etc.), is behind the government’s program.

    In other words, there is truth in what everyone is saying, and, regardless, we need to not contend with each other about it.

    • G. Michael Craig says:

      Dennis, to energetically discuss a topic is not the same thing as contention. I thought Rob and I were doing pretty well. I felt no contention, and I doubt that he did either. So chill out. Unlax. Cool it. But you are correct in everything else you said. Satan’s counterfeit to charity, whether administered by the Church or done individually, is government subsidies, funded by money stolen from the citizens by way of taxes and fees, with about three fourths of it being first wasted in fraud, incompetence, and bureaucracy. These subsidies have bankrupted our nation, both financially and morally. We got along quite well without them prior to FDR’s New Deal.
      Rob, if you see nothing wrong with the legalized theft being practiced by the government for the purpose of buying votes at the next election by way of “spoils”, there is nothing I can do for you. Yes, drugs and porn rob us of our agency, but the same people in government who provide the “spoils” so the people get addicted to them also supply the drugs and the porn. Both are designed to create dependency, thus robbing us of our freedom. I would eat grass before I would accept a government subsidy.

      • Dennis Gorgoglione says:

        I still feel that the language and tone have been contentious. In any case, while we should oppose government welfare on principle, we should not criticize those who are compelled by the circumstances in their lives, in an economy debauched by the government, to participate in government welfare programs. In fact, since our taxes pay for these programs, when we qualify for them, we should participate in them as a tax credit, because our tax dollars have already been spent on them. And government welfare programs cannot be abolished overnight without leaving a lot of innocent people without the necessities of life. These programs need to be defederalized and gradually phased out of existence.

        • James says:

          Let’s not be contentious about whether things are getting contentious or not. :)

          The problem with your logic is that we still continue to propagate the system. Rationalize it any way we want the result is the same. Using the government to steal from my brother because it stole from me is still theft. Satan is still laughing all the way to the bank because he has us thinking we are trapped in the system. At some point we must turn the other cheek and make the madness stop. If not with those who know it’s wrong, then with who?

          • Dennis Gorgoglione says:

            Like I said, government welfare needs to be phased out of existence. If we need a program which has already been paid for by taxpayers money, we should use it. That’s what the Church tells us to do. We should gradually legislate it out of existence, but abolishing it overnight would be both cruel and suicidal.

        • James says:

          Dennis, You said the following below which I am reposting because there was no reply option available otherwise.

          “Dennis Gorgoglione says:
          July 6, 2011 at 7:36 pm

          Like I said, government welfare needs to be phased out of existence. If we need a program which has already been paid for by taxpayers money, we should use it. That’s what the Church tells us to do. We should gradually legislate it out of existence, but abolishing it overnight would be both cruel and suicidal.

          Speaking to BYU students Ezra Taft Benson said, “Recently a letter came to my office, accompanied by an article from your Daily Universe, on the matter of BYU students taking food stamps. The query of the letter was: “What is the attitude of the Church on taking food stamps?” The Church’s view on this is well known. We stand for independence, thrift, and abolition of the dole. This was emphasized in the Saturday morning welfare meeting of general conference. “The aim of the Church is to help the people to help themselves. Work is to be re-enthroned as the ruling principle of the lives of our Church membership” (Heber J. Grant, Conference Report, October 1936, p. 3).

          When you accept food stamps, you accept an unearned handout that other working people are paying for. You do not earn food stamps or welfare payments. Every individual who accepts an unearned government gratuity is just as morally culpable as the individual who takes a handout from taxpayers’ money to pay his heat, electricity, or rent. There is no difference in principle between them. You did not come to this University to become a welfare recipient. You came here to be a light to the world, a light to society–to save society and to help to save this nation, the Lord’s base of operations in these latter days, to ameliorate man’s social conditions. You are not here to be a parasite or freeloader. The price you pay for “something for nothing” may be more than you can afford. Do not rationalize your acceptance of government gratuities by saying, “I am a contributing taxpayer too.” By doing this you contribute to the problem which is leading this nation to financial insolvency.

          Society may rationalize immorality, but God cannot condone it. Society sponsors Sabbathbreaking, but the Church counsels otherwise. Society profanes the name of Deity, but Latter-day Saints cannot countenance it. Because society condones a dole, which demoralizes man and weakens his God-given initiative and character, can we?

          I know what it is, as many of your faculty members do, to work my way through school, taking classes only during winter quarters. If you don’t have the finances to complete your education, drop out a semester and go to work and save. You’ll be a better man or woman for so doing. You will have preserved your self-respect and initiative. Wisdom comes with experience and struggle, not just with going through a university matriculation. I hope you will not be deceived by current philosophies which will rob you of your godly dignity, self-respect, and initiative, those attributes that make a celestial inheritance possible. It is in that interest, and that only, that I have spoken so plainly to you. ”
          http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6162

          Now it is true that very recently we have begun to see the church here and there allow use of government social programs. However we know that this was never the Lords way to being with having read the above quotefrom Pres Benson and Heber Grant. So why would he “change his mind” and start allowing it now? Did he come to an epiphany, and say “Oh I had it wrong all along. My children had it right, I have seen the light! I should have known better. I hope no one notices my flip flop”…… Hardly. I think the best way to understand this move is to liken it to a similar scenario that the Lord himself addressed about the practice of divorce being allowed by Moses.

          Mark 10:2-9
          2¶And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.

          3And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?

          4And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.

          5And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.

          6But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

          7For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

          8And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

          9What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

          So the key here was “…For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.”. Essentially because we (the church) would not listen to the prophets it was allowed because the church is ruled by “common consent” I think this means that when a majority of the members of the church decides to ignore the Lord’s counsel on any topic of the restored gospel he will give them a lower law or simply stop talking about it anymore. This way through their disobedience the church members and the children of those members lose principles of the gospel according to their “common consent”.
          D&C 93:39 reads
          39And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers.
          Another example of this is when the Elders of Israel(the church) demanded of Samuel the Prophet that they have a king(centralized gov – like socialism) and do away with the Lord’s government he had revealed for them which was a decentralized system of judges. Did the Lord see the light and give them a King? No he gave them one because they would not listen to him so he let them have their way. It brought the eventual total collapse of Israel in everyway but they ignored the Lord. They wanted to look like other nations. Just like members now are ignoring the Lord’s counsel against socialism and communism and all centralized gov(with the exception of it being he himself who is the only one that can be trusted with that kind of power) and demanding the acceptance of socialized systems like they have around the world the Lord is letting us have it our way. As he himself put it.
          1 Samuel 8:6-7
          6¶But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord.

          7And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the avoice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

          Now if you will not hear this I think I am done. I will have decided that you must be a (New Order Mormon)NOM with a heart of stone that cares not what the truth is but seeks to overthrow the church from within by deception and lying lips. There are plenty of things we can as members discuss and honestly disagree on but once the Lord has made clear is position through his own lips or the prophets his servants then there is little more than discussions on how to humble ourselves to accept it that we should be having. You can ignore or stone the prophets and their utterances but I reserve the right to use my agency to humble myself and obey. When I have done this first I have then been taught of the spirit and brought to an understanding of WHY certain commandments are the way they are. But not before. I was not capable of truly understanding them until I had willingly submitted to them of my own free will and choice.

          • Dennis Gorgoglione says:

            What Ezra Taft Benson was saying was, if you can’t afford to go to school without accepting food stamps, don’t go to school until you can afford it. Of course, tuition rates at most colleges and universities are mercilessly higher now, even after adjusting for inflation, and there are many now who can’t get by at all without some assistance.

            Because of my current circumstances in life, including the state of the economy (especially in my area), I cannot eat without food stamps, and I cannot take care of my rotting teeth without state health insurance. What should I do? Go hungry? Let my teeth rot? Is that the Lord’s will? I don’t think so. The Lord’s will is that I accept whatever help I need until I can become independent. I believe the Lord would also have us carefully phase out the welfare state as we institute other reforms to reduce government spending and improve the economy, without depriving anyone of the necessities of life. Of course, this would require that all recipients of government assistance be required to work for what they get, and to not get more than they need to sustain themselves and pursue whatever course is available to improve their lives and become independent. The solution is to reform welfare out of existence, not abolish it overnight.

    • Rob Osborn says:

      There is not a lot of general differences between food stamps and church food help.

      I disagree that paying taxes is “legalized theft”. Legalized theft is what happens in Vegas at the casinos- that’s legalized theft.

      Satan is definately not behind the governments social programs to help the needy- that is the silliest thing I have ever heard. Since when does Satan ever care about the poor and destitute? All through recorded history as found in scripture Satan could care less about the poor. Satan is definately not about helping out the poor- he would rather see people starve to death.

      • Dennis Gorgoglione says:

        Read Ezra Taft Benson’s book, “The Proper Role of Government,” at the following link: http://laissez-fairerepublic.com/benson.htm. This was actually an address which he delivered at general conference. Consider the following quote, which he borrowed from Frederic Bastiat:

        “When a portion of wealth is tranferred from the person who owns it – without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud – to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed!

        “How is the legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime…” (THE LAW, p. 21, 26; P.P.N.S., p. 377)

        Next, read Marion G. Romney’s conference address on socialism vs. the United Order: http://runwin.tripod.com/socialism.html. Consider the following quote:

        Socialism takes: United Order gives

        That is the spirit of socialism: We’re going to take. The spirit
        of the United Order is: We’re going to give.

        Satan is surely behind a system based on theft which multiplies the number of the poor who are supposed to be helped.

        • Rob Osborn says:

          Somehow people have a misaligned view of what “taxes” imply and why it is the law to pay them. As citizens we agree to pay taxes by voting in those laws into effect. Often times this is through electing leaders who thus help to put laws and taxes in place so that the country can run efficiently. Because this is all through an election process, we as citizens basically agree to the processes that come about from that election process. We also agree, as citizens to uphold those in whom we place in office. We as a church believe in honoring obeying and sustaining the law- even the law of paying taxes for whatever reasons be they- schooling, road and bridge construction, healthcare, etc.

          It’s not a grevious tax by any means either. Taxes are what we agree upon to pay in order so that we actually have “order” in society. Only those who feel they are being robbed are those who are selfish about helping others. Those who feel the government is taking from them and giving to another are the same types that wish we had no structered tax system at all and in place a system of chaos and disorder.

          It’s sad that even some prominent church leaders from days now gone have voiced opposition to honoring, obeying and sustaining the law (paying taxes willingly).

          As a matter of fact, our church in no way teaches that the government is taking money from us and in that sense robbing from us. That is a misaligned view and not in proper standing with correct LDS beliefs about obeying the law, even if it means paying our taxes on time.

          The whole “socialism” drive is fading amongst leaders in the church. It’s a bad leftover from the cold war era and in todays church system and beliefs, those once taught beliefs are now not spoken of at all. Differing views on socialism and such are emerging in a new light and helping us to understand about proper government and when and how it goes wrong.

          Of course, there is still some dissent (sites like this for one) about some supposed communistic conspiracy, but, just like the cold war, it too will blow over and God’s true ways will continue to enlighten the world and destroy evil and rid it of it’s place. This world, contrary to some peoples beliefs, is actually making great strides towards unity in Christ and spreading the good news. We are not on some predestined road to ruin in this country. In fact we are destined to stand as an ensign to the world and as “zion” the law will go forth throughout the earth from this great land. I just wish all the nay-sayers would get off their conspiracy horses, open their eyes, and see just where exactly this country has come in the last 200 years. We have come along way and made great strides towards achieving a more zion-like structured society in this great land of ours.

          • Dennis Gorgoglione says:

            Rob, do you see how contentious you’re being? You are being antagonistically, arrogantly ignorant. Allow me to explain.

            How dare you imply that those of us who oppose legal plunder are opposed to obeying the laws and paying taxes? I never voted for the laws which take my money to give to others, nor did I vote for the politicians who voted that way. Therefore, I did not consent to these socialist programs. Therefore, the use of my money for such programs, by force or the threat of force, without my consent, is legalized plunder.

            How dare you imply that those of us who dislike these socialist, immoral, unconstitutional taxes are uncharitable anarchists? The scriptures tell us that a 20% tax is grievous to be born. When you add up all the taxes, federal, state, and local, more than 50% of our income is taxed, and that doesn’t even count the biggest, most insidious tax of all: monetary inflation. This is truly a most grievous tax. I help people all the time, but I alone have the right to decide who to help, how much to help them, in what manner to help them, and if I want to help anyone at all. I believe in just enough government to protect our God-given, constitutionally guaranteed rights, and just enough equitable taxation to pay for that.

            How dare you imply that some of the apostles, including at least two presidents of the Church, were opposed to obedience to the law and the payment of taxes, just because they opposed socialism. Socialist laws are both unconstitutional and evil. I believe in obeying even the evil laws, but they must be repealed.

            How dare you dismiss General Conference addresses given by apostles as being misaligned with correct LDS beliefs, and oppositional to obeying the laws and paying taxes. The Church teaches us through the General Conference, and the Church certainly has taught us that socialism is legal plunder, but that does not mean we should not obey the laws and pay our taxes. Again, evil laws and evil taxes must be abolished.

            How dare you imply that the Church contradicts itself. The Church is not in any way accepting any element of socialism. The Church doesn’t talk about it anymore, maybe because Church members like you refuse to listen, because the urgency of the attack on the constitution — though worse than ever — has been superseded by the urgency of the attack on the family and the attack on faith, because of the threat that would be posed to the Church’s 501(c)(3) status, and because, with all these factors, we can’t afford to let anything impede the progress of the missionaries missionary program. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t still be concerned about socialism. The Church still teaches us to support the Constitution, and to support constitutional laws and constitutionalist politicians. Have you ever read the Constitution, which has been prophetically proclaimed as “the word of the Lord to the saints?” Have you studied it? Do you know and understand it? You should read President Benson’s BYU address, “The Constitution: A Heavenly Banner.” http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6985

            How dare you imply that those of us who are aware of a godless, satanical conspiracy, which includes communism, are just a bunch of evil naysayers. We only got three First Presidency messages identifying communism as the greatest satanical threat to the spread of God’s work on the earth. You’re concerned about pornography, drugs, and other elements of the culture war? So am I. The communists and their billionaire socialist financiers on Wall Street are behind that as well as socialism. The Book of Mormon warns us about this, along with the Books of Isaiah and Revelation. You should read “The New World Order: An Analysis for Latter-day Saints.” http://www.awakeandarise.org/article/TheNewWorldOrderAnAnalysisforLatter-daySaints.htm
            This world is making great strides toward unity under Satan. The Church is making great strides, but it has been prophesied that we will suffer more terribly than the early saints did, that the saints will be butchered and the prophets martyred. The current Church leaders tell us that dark times are coming. You had better be very careful. You are clearly on the wrong side of the freedom battle. That was the big mistake made by one third of God’s children who followed Lucifer in the War in Heaven. You had better be very careful indeed.

          • Pat says:

            You do like to muddy up the waters and throw out unsupported accusations, don’t you?

            You tie together infrastructure and “social” programs. People do not usually have a problem paying taxes for infrastructure. “Social” programs, including education, are better dealt with on state and local levels, since communities know what is best for them, not an out-of-touch federal government.

            Taxes are grievous when one considers local, state, and federal income tax, social security and medicaid, sales tax, property tax, fuel/gasoline tax, capital gains tax, estate tax, inheritance tax, as well as:
            •Ad Valorem Tax
            •Building Permit Tax
            •Capital Gains Tax
            •CDL license Tax
            •Cigarette Tax
            •Court Fines (indirect taxes)
            •Dog License Tax
            •Federal Unemployment Tax
            •Fishing License Tax
            •Food License Tax
            •Fuel permit tax
            •Hunting License Tax
            •Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)
            •Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
            •IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
            •Liquor Tax
            •Luxury Taxes
            •Marriage License Tax
            •Property Tax
            •Real Estate Tax
            •Septic Permit Tax
            •Service Charge Taxes
            •Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)
            •Recreational Vehicle Tax
            •Road Toll Booth Taxes
            •School Tax
            •State Unemployment Tax
            •Telephone federal excise tax
            •Telephone federal universal service fee tax
            •Telephone federal, state and local surcharge taxes
            •Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax
            •Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax
            •Telephone state and local tax
            •Telephone usage charge tax
            •Toll Bridge Taxes
            •Toll Tunnel Taxes
            •Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)
            •Trailer Registration Tax
            •Utility Taxes
            •Vehicle License Registration Tax
            •Vehicle Sales Tax
            •Watercraft Registration Tax
            •Well Permit Tax
            •Workers Compensation Tax

            These are only a few. So, yes, taxes are grievous.

            Since you are so fond of facts, please provide link where Church leaders have “voiced opposition to . . . (paying taxes willingly).”

            The “whole ‘socialism’ drive is fading” because few members believe its true and disparage those who warned in the past, including you, so why talk about it anymore. Also, I can see where Church leaders would be accused of getting all political. I would not be surprised if you joined that bandwagon.

            Regarding the “naysayers . . . [getting] off of their conspiracy horses.” In another thread, you stated that “in our present day, our current prophet has said nothing concerning some “secret combination” or conspiracy from some unseen force overthrowing our government.” Another poster showed you were wrong. What was your response? Absolutely nothing.

            So, then, what does all this matter to you, anyway? You have spoken ill of past Church leaders and ignore what current leaders have said because you think you know better than they. You call people selfish, when you have no idea what you are talking about and throw out unsupported accusations to suit your purposes. Your religion is your ideology and you have skewed the scriptures to fit that ideology.

            Go ahead, keep kicking against the pricks.

      • Pat says:

        Rob,

        Re: “There is not a lot of general differences between food stamps and church food help.”

        Oh, yes, there are, even glaring differences. Here’s a couple:

        The government forces me to pay for food stamps.

        The Church allows me to choose to pay fast and other offerings to help the poor and the needy.

        The government does not require nor encourage welfare recipients to be self-sufficient, even though there are programs out there for them to utilize.

        The Church encourages people generally to be self-sufficient and provides programs needed to accomplish such.

        Re: “I disagree that paying taxes is “legalized theft”. Legalized theft is what happens in Vegas at the casinos- that’s legalized theft.”

        The government TAKING from me AND GIVING to another WITHOUT MY CONSENT is “legalized theft.” I earned the money. Let me choose how charitable I want to be.

        People CHOOSING to go to legalized casinos are using their right to choose, right or wrong, how they blow their own money. Nobody is forcing them to go there. They know the casinos are crooked. And just think, your government legalized casinos.

        Re: “Satan is definately not behind the governments social programs to help the needy- that is the silliest thing I have ever heard. Since when does Satan ever care about the poor and destitute? All through recorded history as found in scripture Satan could care less about the poor. Satan is definately not about helping out the poor-he would rather see people starve to death.”

        Yes, Satan would rather see the poor starve to death. What better way than entitlement programs that do not teach them to feed themselves. What’s going to happen when the funds to these programs dry up? How then are these same poor people, whom you claim to care for, going to take care of themselves? Hmm? Stealing? Plundering? What?

        • Rob Osborn says:

          Get over the fact that the government is not “taking” from you. That is a very selfish attitude. No one holds a gun to your head or threatens to kill your family. This isn’t a case of robbery here. We pay our taxes as part of the laws that we ourselves pass into place. Don’t like it? Then simply move to Mexico or run for office or vote someone else in to change the laws more to your likening. But to run around claimingt he government is stealing from you to feed the poor is shameful.

          • Pat says:

            Oh, really, selfish. You have no idea what you are talking about, and you certainly are not going to make me feel guilty.

            How much fast offering do you give? Is it generous? How about humanitarian aid? Is it very generous? How about the Perpetual Education Fund? The mission fund? How much time do you spend in community service? Helping the elderly and the widowed?

            Have you ever given directly to needy families $1000, $500, $200, etc., anonymously? How about buying a car for a mother with young children? Or purchasing a bed for an elderly lady? Have you ever given up your life’s savings because somebody else needed it more.

            And guess what, my husband has never made much money. We have four children. They wonder how have we made it on so little. And they don’t even know how much we have helped others.

            I don’t need you nor the government telling me how to spend my money for the poor and the needy.

            As for your comment, “No one holds a gun to your head or threatens to kill your family.” No, they just threaten to take all that I have and put me in prison if I don’t pay my taxes.

  11. G. Michael Craig says:

    Just one major correction. Our taxes have NOT paid for these subsidies, as most LDS seem to think. At best, our taxes have only partially paid the interest on the money borrowed to fund these vote-buying “spoils”. That includes so-called social security. No social security trust fund was ever established by FDR as promised. All FICA payroll deductions went into the general fund, stolen from us as it were, and used to fund our military adventurism overseas, pay congress’s bloated salaries and benefits, and fund every socialist/marxist social welfare vote-buying “spoil” that anti-christs like Harry Reid depend on to cement themselves into public office for a lifetime. We are not justified in stealing from others by way of social security spoils just because our contributions over a lifetime were first stolen from us. One theft does not justify another.

    • Dennis Gorgoglione says:

      There is nothing wrong with taking something which our tax dollars have already paid for. What’s wrong with getting a tax credit? I want to opt out of social security, but I also want to get back my money which I put into it.

  12. G. Michael Craig says:

    I’m not sure what you mean by a tax credit involving social security contributions. There is already no law in the IR Code that requires the typical American to file income tax returns. You can never get back the money you put into social security. That’s what I tried to explain. That money was stolen by Congress and our Presidents, and used to fund unconstitutional wars overseas, pay for congressmen’s salaries, fund pork barrell make work schemes in congressional districts to insure reelection, fund socialist welfare programs of every description like Medicare, Medicaid, Food Stamps, AFDC, WIC, subsidized housing, etc. ALL THAT MONEY IS GONE, FOREVER! And not just gone, but buried under an avalanche of debt approaching 200 trillion dollars. The only way for the government to fund current and future social welfare schemes like social security is to increase the size of the debt mountain, borrow the money, and forcing the current crop of workers to pay the interest on it in the form of taxes and fees. So todays retirees are being carried on the backs of todays workers, i.e., a typical Ponzi scheme. That’s the reason I will never apply for social security benefits. I would rather starve than steal. And remember, before all these socialist welfare schemes destroyed America’s families, changed us into a nation of dependent, lazy, overweight drug addicts, and bankrupted our government many times over, there was no such thing as economically dependent grandparents living by themselves far away from their children and grandchildren, collecting a government check each month like today. No, back then, before the 1940’s, such grandparents would move in with their children, or their children would move in with them. This extended family arrangement had the benefit of built in baby sitters for the parents, and a much more efficient method of transferring the wisdom of the ages to the grandchildren. Now all of that is gone. Now the government borrows the money to maintain both households. Now 25% of white children grow up without the benefit of either a father or a grandfather, while 70% of black children do. These kids generally become little more than predators and opportunists, respecting no one’s property, and equally lacking in respect for the opposite sex. Socialism destroy’s civilizations. It destroyed the Jaredites and the Nephites. It is destroying America. It’s only a matter of time, and a short time at that.

    • Dennis Gorgoglione says:

      I agree that there is no law saying most of us have to pay a federal income tax, but there is a law saying we must comply with IRS mandates. That’s why I support the FAIR tax, which would abolish all other federal taxes and the IRS.
      http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

      It is possible, especially with the help of the FAIR tax, for all who have paid into social security to get out what they put into it, adjusted for real inflation, without increasing taxes, debt, or inflation. We just need to reduce government spending. Foreign aid and unconstitutional war would be great places to start. The way to phase it out is to let people opt out of the system while getting back what they put into it. Abolishing it overnight would put old people out on the street, which would be selfish and cruel.

  13. Rob Osborn says:

    Dennis,

    You are certainly entitled to your opinion. All I am searching for is the truth, not a bunch of second hand accounts of conspiracy theories and tall tales. If there truly is some satanical power running our government then please expose it, but i am not just gonna hop on the wagon because my neighbor believes in some conspiracy and accuses me of perhaps following satan by not believing in him.

    The thing I have learned is that you cannot go running around claiming the sky is falling. Neither can you go around bearing false witness against people and groups from which information that you yourself got from a long line of gossipers and politically motivated talk show hosts. Sometimes I question whether we as a church have gotten into the habit of spouting off and bearing false witness against others who side on the political left. It seems that we as church goers have turned into far right gossip ringers who pass along all the politically charged accusations that we hear on conservative talk radio. That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t listen to talk radio or watch “Fox News”. It means that we should do our own research and find out exactly what is happening. One has to listen to both sides, try to remain neutral during the questioning phase and then be unbiased in our approach to correct principle- wherever it may lie- even if it is on the left side of politics.

    When we learn to be unbiased, have a better understanding from all sides, then perhaps we can execute judgment where it lands- it being on the right and correct line of judgment. I know we don’t have a perfect government, but then again, we have been working at it for a few hundred years and have made many mistakes along the way.

    We are not led in this country by any satanical or dark power. There mat be evil men from time to time who even put forth dark plans, but that even happens in every organization including our own church! Our constitution is established in such a manner with the balance of powers to directy and exactly thwart the evil one and his plans. Our constitution is firm on that principle.

    • Rob Osborn says:

      Ok, so where exactly is the proof- the first hand accounts labeling exactly what is happening? Let’s start there. Please provide some proof so we know what we are talking about other than just some generalized commy conspiracy talk. It’s not that I completely disbelieve it, it’s that I am skepticle of where and how this information comes about and is spread about, Trust me, I do want the truth, just not a bunch of conspiracy talk with no evidence.

  14. G. Michael Craig says:

    Rob, you have already had the benefit of the council that I , Pat, Ezra, and Dennis have provided you. It is our FIRST HAND knowledge of the difference between the amount of power and authority that the constitution delegates to the government versus the amount of power and authority actually wielded by it today. You can read our nations founding documents as well as we can, and make that comparison yourself. You can see that virtually 95% of what the government does today is lacking in that delegated authority, especially since the war on freedom began, euphamistically referred to by the liars, thieves, and murderers in our nations capitol as the war on terror. You can read D&C 98:7 yourself, where the Lord said that “whatsoever is more or less than this(the Constitution), cometh of EVIL”. Who is the author of evil? He is also the author of communism/socialism! Like President Benson said, communism is the same thing as socialism. The first is arrived at by military conquest. The second by political means. But they are identical in operation. Why can’t you put two and two together? The Lord “commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall(must)awake to a sense of your AWFUL situation,…”(Ether 8:24) We are all trying patiently to awaken you. The socialism that you keep defending has bankrupted our nation, just as it has bankrupted every other nation that tried it. The CBO officially lists our indebtedness at 62 trillion dollars. An economics professor at one of our IVY League colleges stated recently that it’s actually closer to 200 trillion, when all the long-term unfunded liabilities are factored in. This is the direct result of socialism, as it has always been throughout history, where the financial burden of cradle to grave, womb to the tomb social welfare programs can only be carried by increasing amounts of borrowed funds, with the resultant debt mountain eventually collapsing, crushing entire civilizations, like the Greeks, the Romans, the Nephites, and soon to be us. Try to imagine an America, where 43 million people now subsist on food stamps, where 40% of all income is now some form of government subsidy, and where close to 100 million of us depend on social security; try to imagine the gut wrenching horror that will result when the government collapses under the weight of it’s own socialist debt, when ALL food stamps, ALL subsidies, and ALL social security checks suddenly cease. Millions of people will die of starvation and thirst. Millions more will die defending what few provisions they have, or attempting to take provisions that belong to others. Blood will run in the streets. Get yourself a copy of “Prophecy: Key to the Future” by Duane Crowther. Read for yourself what Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Orson Pratt, and other prophets said about the future of America, and all because of the socialism and it’s attendant corruption that you ignorantly and foolishly apparently equate with the laws of consecration. If you want first hand proof of that which we are trying to teach you, and IF you really do believe that prophets speak for and in behalf of the Lord, read for yourself what these seers prophecied. It will be hell on earth, as it was eventually among the Nephites, because we, like they, supported people for public office based solely on the amount of socialist “spoils” they promised(Helaman 6:38-39), with little or no consideration being given to their moral character or commitment to the Constitution. Truly did Pogo speak when he said “We have seen the enemy, and he is us”.

    • Rob Osborn says:

      You must be a commy socialist then because you pay your taxes. Get real! I agree that some of our social systems in this country need some help, but in no way is it Satan’s plan to overthrow this country. I am curious as to why our current prophet hasn’t spoken out on such a grand conspiracy? Certainly he would have. So, here I am constantly watching for these murderous combinations to get above me and yet I wait and wait and none of my leaders are performing them and the only connection i can make is like that which is happening south of the border in Mexico. In fact, I can’t remember the last time a murderous combination got above me in this country that the BoM warns about. If I lived in Mexico, of course- it’s a no-brainer!

  15. Rob Osborn says:

    Ezra,

    Ok, give me a specific date, time, place, and exact information that the CFR did showing where and how specifically they are taking over the world. Until you give me that, it’s all just foolish conspiracy talk.

    • Rob Osborn says:

      Perhaps then I am slow on memory or intelligence. forgive me my slowness. One of the links expressed mentioned frequently the Council on Foreign Relations. I wanted to take that one step farther and actually plot out the sequence or series of facts leading to informations showing how the CFR is plotting to take over the world. If you wouldn’t mind, please give me the specifics on the date, place, information, etc, showing exactly how the Council on Foriegin Relations is taking over the world so that we have something to discuss besides generalizations and offbeat quotes said by opinionated people.

      • Dennis Gorgoglione says:

        Rob, I don’t know about your memory or your intelligence, but I think you’re just being willfully, arrogantly ignorant.

        Are you a latter-day saint or aren’t you. The words of the prophets should be enough for you, but, obviously, they’re not. You openly disagree with them and contend against what they said. That puts you on the road to apostasy.

        Did you even so much as watch that video by G. Edward Griffin? It supplies the information you’re asking for in a nutshell. And I’m sure you haven’t read any of the books I introduced you to.

        The following document is a brief, yet concise, overview and detailed analysis of the conspiracy, including the Council on Foreign Relations.
        http://www.freedomfirstsociety.org/home/index.php/its-a-conspiracy/70-the-marxist-attack-on-the-american-middle-class.html
        Read it thoroughly and carefully and prayerfully before you post anymore comments, and let your comments be about specific points made in this document. You have a habit of responding to specific information by making general comments to the effect that no such information was given. Let’s change that now. Comment on a specific point in this document, and let’s take it from there.

        • Rob Osborn says:

          Dennis,

          Ok that is fair. There were lots of things that stood out to me in the article. First I will choose the topic of “gun control”.

          Here is the pertinent paragraph I found to be without merit-

          “The drive for civilian disarmament (gun control). Coupled with the drive for nationalizing police forces, disarming the public would embolden criminals and make Americans dependent on the federal government for their personal security. In addition, when the population is disarmed it becomes easier for government officials to forget that they must listen to and serve the people. Civilian disarmament paves the way for totalitarians to seize control.

          It is even more important to recognize that the international drive against small arms is sponsored or controlled by Insiders at the top, many of them allied with the New York Council on Foreign Relations. And that the UN itself is their brainchild and tool in a massive deception.”

          I did some reseacrh into the matter over the years and from what I can tell is that gun control is a political battle not over second ammendment rights but really over national security and rising violence domestically and the best way to attack those issues..

          But to make the claim as the article does to say it is part of the conspiracy headed up by the CFR is completely without merit. One must prove that the CFR is pushing gun control for the purpose of disarming all of America. As far as I can tell, the CFR is not about wanting that at all. There are some at the CFR who want to enhance the current gun laws we have for the purpose of better security and to keep domestic violence down. Read here-

          http://www.cfr.org/world/if-bush-were-eager-control-guns-wmd/p5246

          But, one will note that he says in the article-

          “The White House is demanding full weapons disclosure from Iraq, refusing to tolerate “any deception, denial or deceit, period,” but it will not consider requiring similar information at home in the form of a national gun registration. By refusing to catalog the Americans who possess high-powered weapons and rejecting calls to limit gun ownership, Washington has impaired the ability of law-enforcement agencies to protect Americans in their own country. ”

          This is not civilian disarmament at all. The article you gave me to read miscatalogs, and misrepresents te aims of some at the CFR.

          So, with all due respect, show me the proof where the CFR is wanting to really disarm civilains of all their guns so they can orchestrate a takeover more easily.

          It’s now back in your court!

  16. Rob Osborn says:

    James,

    My comments about the government welfare system are that it does need reform. Is it (government social services system) the patch of evil socialism? No it is not! Satan has no track record for taking care of the poor and needy in society. People on welfare have their own minds to either use the system for what it was designed for or to abuse it. It is true, and sad both, that most people receiving subsistance for any extended amount of time will fall in a rut from wheich it is hard to overcome. We see that same problem within the church system and those who abuse it there also. Within the church it is easeir to control the regulations and keep track of any situations that become problematic. This is where the government system could look to the church and seek it’s help in overhauling our current national welfare system into a more efficient manner that promotes more self reliance rather than dependance.

    We mustn’t confuse that just because there are a minority of loafers on welfare that the system itself is the works of Satan and some supposed commy conspiracy placing us on the road to some evil socialist state. We must remember the principles of why the welfare system was put in, in the first place. The purpose was to ease the burden in hard times economically for those who could not fully support themselves and their famils to exist. It was never intended to enslave or trap people into idleness and worthlessness. perhaps that is a large misconception of how some view the situation. I myself was once on the government welfare system in part (food stamps) because the cost of living exceeded my hard worked income as a cabint maker. The system there in place served it’s purpose and I was left with a roof over my head and food to eat. As I increased my income I then no longer needed the service so I discontinued it’s benefit to me. As a citizen of the USA I see it as a duty to both God and my country to not abuse such a system. The social service sytem in place is to principly serve the good and honorable in society. It is sad that some, for one reasonm or another seek malice in abuse of the system in place. In their case, it is not the governments fault but entirely their own and their fathers from which they learned it from.

    If American citizens were fully honest in their dealings with the welfare system in place, we would have a very effective and efficient system principled upon righteousness and godly attributes. Indeed, it would work almost as flawlessly as does the church welfare system.

    But, make no mistake- the welfare system in place is not the brainchild of Satan.

    • Dennis Gorgoglione says:

      Rob, your last reply to me, wherein you asked me to give evidence of the Council on Foreign Relations’ (CFR) goal to disarm the civilian population, did not have a reply option, so I reply here.

      The paragraph which you asked me to address points out that the U.N.’s civilian disarmament program is being led by high-level insiders who are allied with the CFR, and that the U.N. is the CFR’s brainchild. The implication here is that the CFR pushes for civilian disarmament, not directly, but indirectly through the U.N. So, which point to you want me to address: that the U.N. is the CFR’s brainchild; or that the U.N. is promoting civilian disarmament?

      • Rob Osborn says:

        I wish for you to address how exactly the whole disarmament conspiracy is working from the CFR, down to the UN and into our judicial system. Specifically, I want you to show how this evil establishment is seeking to disarm America so that it can more easily take over the country. Tacking names to one organization or another, or even names with ties to an organization doesn’t cut it either. One must show proof into the allegations showing exact plans, not just some conspiracy theory- too easy to make that stuff up. Looking for solid evidence here.

        • Dennis Gorgoglione says:

          Where talking about a highly complex conspiracy, and you’re asking me to address multiple points at once. That makes it harder to show sufficient evidence in one posting. Let’s take it one specific point at a time. Which one point would you like me to start with.

          • Rob Osborn says:

            That is how all conspiracy theories are- so complex that after time they don’t even make sense. Let’s first address the exact aims of the supposed CFR involvement to disarm US citizens of their right to bear arms.

            And, as a side, if you get time, please address why Robert S. Wood, a General Authority has represented the church in the CFR’s s Religious Advisory Committee? Does this mean that the church is in on the conspiracy also?” Here is the link showing the church’s representation in the Council on Foreign Relation. (Note that the Name “Robert S. Wood” is representing the church officially).

            http://www.cfr.org/about/outreach/religioninitiative/advisory_board.html

    • Dennis Gorgoglione says:

      I am currently on food stamps and state health insurance, but that is because the socialist welfare program has drained and shackled the economy. The government welfare program was never designed to be a hand up. It has always been designed to be a hand out. Furthermore, it has always been designed to trap people in the system. For example: if you get $300.00 a week in unemployment compensation, and you get a part-time job which pays you $200.00 a week, you get no more unemployment compensation. They punish you for trying to gain some measure of independence. This is truly diabolical, but why should we be surprised. Satan is surely behind a system based on legal plunder. And, if you claim to be a latter-day saint, don’t say another word about this without reading the pertinent General Conference address which I have already referred you to. The prophets have spoken!

      Incidentally, the communists and socialists have been behind the New Deal, the Great Society, and every other leap in government assistance. You can read it in the communist and socialist press.

      • Rob Osborn says:

        I guess it is all in how one looks at it. I see the welfare system as a help not a hinderance. I see it as part of our free system, not some satanic conspiracy.

        • Dennis Gorgoglione says:

          Yes, there are always at least two ways of looking at any issue: the right way, and one or more wrong ways. Between the two of us, or between you and the rest of us on this thread, which of us are looking at it the way the prophets and apostles have been looking at it? Again, if you haven’t read the conference addresses I referred you to, read them before you respond.

          • Rob Osborn says:

            Let’s first make a distinction here- perhaps a “clarification”. The “church” does not teach any doctrine that the government welfare is evil, socialist or communistic. The “church” also does not look down upon those on government assistance nor avdises counsel for them to abstain from government assistance.

            There is actually no “official” teaching that government welfare is satanic or part of any satanic or evil conspiracy. So, for those who believe government welfare is part of a socialist conspiracy, the church itself has remained neutral on the issue.

        • Dennis Gorgoglione says:

          I have already referred you to three documents proving the Church’s teaching on government welfare, socialism, and conspiracy. I will repost them. If you do not read them, don’t even bother responding, because you are just speaking our of willful ignorance, and we call that arrogance.

          Read Ezra Taft Benson’s General Conference address, “The Proper Role of Government,” at the following link: http://laissez-fairerepublic.com/benson.htm.

          Next, read Marion G. Romney’s conference address on socialism vs. the United Order: http://runwin.tripod.com/socialism.html.

          You should read “The New World Order: An Analysis for Latter-day Saints.” http://www.awakeandarise.org/article/TheNewWorldOrderAnAnalysisforLatter-daySaints.htm

      • Dennis Gorgoglione says:

        There was no option to respond to your last post about the conspiracy, so I’m posting my response here.

        First of all, nowhere does it say that Elder Wood was officially representing the Church at the CFR. Even so, the Church had official representation at the United Nations Year of the Family, after which President Hinckley said it was a waste of time.

        Rear Admiral Chester Ward was a CFR member who got expelled when he started exposing it. He said that 75% of CFR members don’t even know what the real agenda is. (That’s how any affective conspiracy operates, with everyone outside of the inner circle being left in the dark.) He also said that they could afford to have a few good patriots like himself as members, just to make themselves look good.

        Again, you insist on combining two issues here, and now you throw in another issue on top of it. The CFR uses the UN to promote civilian disarmament. Now, which side of this equation would you like me to address first: the CFR’s conception and control of the UN; or the UN’s promotion of civilian disarmament?

        (Incidentally, most conspiracy theories that I know of are very simplistic, anything but complex. But I don’t waste time with conspiracy theories. I only deal with conspiracy facts.)

        • Rob Osborn says:

          It doesn’t matter how you cut it, Robert S. Wood represents the church at the CFR. If he didn’t represent the church, the CFR wouldn’t list it. Anyway, it doesn’t really matter, I was just showing that even the top tiers of the church personal are in contact with the CFR and working with them.

          You can make as many conspiracy theory claims as you want, I am still awaiting the actual “facts” you promise. Please list the facts you claim behind the CFR’s involvement with US citizen disarmament. I don’t care if you include the UN in the conspiracy or not, just show how the CFR wants and works towards disarming the average US citizen.

          • Dennis Gorgoglione says:

            You are one of the most arrogant individuals I have ever met.

            Show me the “facts” relating to the Church having anything to do with the CFR. The only fact is that no such association exists, just like the Church is not associated with this website. Stop making arrogant assumptions.

            I have already told you that the CFR uses the UN to promote civilian disarmament. I have told you that two separate issues are involved here, and that I will only address one issue at a time. I can show you the facts linking the CFR to the UN, and I can show you the facts linking the UN to civilian disarmament. I will not address both issues at the same time, as that would be too cumbersome. If you want to remain in ignorance, so be it. But if you want the facts, we will deal with one issue at a time, then you can see how the two issues are connected

          • Dennis Gorgoglione says:

            You are one of the most arrogant individuals I have ever met.

            Show me the “facts” relating to the Church having anything to do with the CFR. The only fact is that no such association exists, just like the Church is not associated with this website. Stop making arrogant assumptions.

            I have already told you that the CFR uses the UN to promote civilian disarmament. I have told you that two separate issues are involved here, and that I will only address one issue at a time. I can show you the facts linking the CFR to the UN, and I can show you the facts linking the UN to civilian disarmament. I will not address both issues at the same time, as that would be too cumbersome. If you want to remain in ignorance, so be it. But if you want the facts, we will deal with one issue at a time, then you can see how the two issues are connected.

  17. G. Michael Craig says:

    Dennis, some people will argue with a fence post. You can’t help them. No one can. If you were to discover a quote from the CFR published in bold type in the New York Times that said “We here at the CFR would very much like to disarm all Americans so that we can freely enter their homes, confiscate their children, kidnap their wives, rob them of all their property, and finally accomplish the goals of the New World Order described by our former member George Orwell in ‘1984’. “(all true by the way), people like Rob would then demand to know the age, birth date, religion, and political persuasion of the reporter, the exact position in the CFR of the speaker, who authorized him to speak, whether a majority of CFR members agreed with him, and which prophets ever read ‘1984’ and said they were concerned about it, i.e. “the facts”. It’s hopeless.

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