A Modern Abinadi

Vizzini: HE DIDN’T FALL? INCONCEIVABLE.
Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. (The Princess Bride, 1987)

You keep reading that book. I do not think it means what you think it means. (Me, the author of this article, 2013)

At least six times in the Book of Mormon the prophets inform us something to the effect that, “I cannot write the hundredth part of the things of my people.” (Words of Mormon 1:5) Often the implication is that we have received even far less than one percent of the record. Mormon proclaimed “This book cannot contain even a hundredth part of what was done…” (3 Nephi 5:8) Statements such as these should leave us wondering why exactly did they include what they included?

The prophet Mormon is probably the most under appreciated figure in the book of Mormon. He often gets credit for being an exceptional linguist, scholar and general. We focus on his secular learning, his sober mind and his keen observation. (Mormon 1:2) However when framed in the context of his day, an observant reader might conclude that he was at a minimum highly skeptical of the conventional wisdom in his society and perhaps he relied very little on whatever academic skills he possessed. What we most often overlook in Sunday School and Seminary is that at the age of 15 Mormon “was visited of the Lord, and tasted and knew of the goodness of Jesus.” (Mormon 1:15) This was prior to him gaining leadership of the Nephite armies or doing any work on the Nephite record. Mormon was a prophet, seer and revelator from the young age of 15 just like the prophet Joseph Smith. It was his spiritual gifts, his belief, and his being taught from on high that shaped the Book of Mormon; the most correct book on the face of the earth; the one that will bring men nearer to God by abiding by its precepts than any other book. (Book of Mormon, Introduction)

The salient point is this. The book was compiled and organized only through the power of God, by men of God who knew God personally. They had seen in vision the latter-day peoples who would receive the book. The principles or doctrines of salvation could have been enumerated in a reference book format. But these prophets gave us layered stories, metaphors, parables and sermons that taught the same principles and more. They gave us history. Yet they gave us less than the 100th part. Why did they include what they included? Because they saw our day and they knew that we would experience the same things.

Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled. Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you. Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing. (Moroni speaking in Mormon 8:33-35, read 36 too)

These stories were included “for a wise purpose; for thus it whispereth me, according to the workings of the Spirit of the Lord which is in me… And the things which are upon these plates pleasing me, because of the prophecies of the coming of Christ; … and as many as go beyond this day must surely come to pass— (Words of Mormon 1:7,4)

Yes, I reordered that last quote. Go read the context. I stand by this truth. The Book of Mormon was written for our day. One of the best experiences I’ve had in church was listening to a brother instruct a combined deacon-teacher-priest class. He held out the Book of Mormon in front of the young men and opened it up saying, “Mormon didn’t compile this and then go show his buddies and tell them, ‘Check out what I just wrote!’ No they all got killed. This was written for you. This is for us!” And he pointed out over our young men’s group as he said it, and I think it started to sink in. The warnings are for us. The types and shadows are for us. The stories are for us. The reason we have what we have in the Book of Mormon is because it is happening to us.

This article is my own interpretation and I have already exposed my bias. I feel that as a church we are not getting it. We are the gentiles spoken of. You may feel to disagree and that is your prerogative. I am about to draw some broad parallels. I encourage you to take it to the Lord in humble prayer and sort out the truth of anything written here. I have no authority to interpret the scriptures for you. That’s the job of the Holy Ghost. Here are a few of the many reasons why certain stories were included.

A Sampling of The Hundredth Part

Most of the stories apply to us each individually. For example, Ammon and his brothers embarked on a 14 year mission to the Lamanites.  This wonderful section has bolstered countless missionaries. “Now when our hearts were depressed, and we were about to turn back, behold, the Lord comforted us, and said: Go amongst thy brethren, the Lamanites, and bear with patience thine afflictions, and I will give unto you success.” (Alma 26:27)  Alma the younger is another great type and shadow in the book. We all know of someone (perhaps yourself) who has found Christ after great struggle. This story is a beautiful theme that is mimicked as we are awakened to our awful guilt and then find the Savior and experience His redeeming love.

Many of the types and shadows relate to our society. We live in a society of supposed self government. The section on the reign of the judges gives us critical insights. Throughout Alma and Helaman we learn what happens to such a self-governing society and their government when they fail to follow the Lord. Closely related is the pride cycle. We have an economic shadow of this destructive cycle called the business cycle. The economy gets heated up and people become complacent. Then everything crashes. Then we do it all over again. In the most destructive sense, the same thing happens to kingdoms and countries. It just takes longer to develop.  Coupled with these societal types comes a warning about secret combinations. Secret combinations are had among all people. They are the cause of our loss of freedom and security and the cause of wars across the globe. They flourish in our own land today. Most unknowingly uphold them and do so to our utter destruction. The sword of justice hangs over us. Many of us can feel this even without putting our finger on the cause. It’s as if the nation is steeped in an ominous foreboding cloud. A portent storm approaches. (Ether 8)

Several of the types expose belief systems that influence and govern our lives. The story of Korihor plainly illustrates the doctrines of secular humanism which has been the predominant guiding philosophy of the American education establishment since the early 1900’s. Late in the chapter Korihor reveals that he was actually a cosmic humanist having been deceived by a dark spirit appearing as an angel of light (Alma 30:53). The mainstream of American culture has in recent decades shed its more secular skin and shown its mystic, Babylon, mystery and occult colors as it progressively inculcates our children with new-age, humanist teachings. For more on Korihor please read my article America, Educated by Korihor. Socialism is also addressed in several places. It is most prominently displayed in the record of Zeniff. Although Noah was a king, his story mirrors our modern entitlement mentality quite well. His people paid a modest 20% tax (much less than we pay today) and reaped the benefits of many public works projects. To say that socialism is different because there is no king is to completely misunderstand the aims of the socialists. They intend to disarm and equalize the public while the elite sit behind the scenes and live the life of the wicked king and his priests, glutting themselves on the labors of the many.

Types of leadership are addressed throughout the book. The aristocracy of Ammonihah parallels our day. This group of the lower judges of the land and their counterparts the lawyers sought power and gain. “Because they received their wages according to their employ, … they did stir up the people to riotings, and all manner of disturbances and wickedness, that they might have more employ, that they might get money according to the suits which were brought before them;” (Alma 11:20) Contrasting leadership types are found in Amalickiah and Moroni. Captain Moroni was a man of perfect understanding. Mormon indicated that “if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken FOREVER.”Mormon’s main rational for making this statement was that Moroni knew not to engage in pre-emptive, aggressive, and offensive war. As a nation, we have completely disregarded this in light of the fact that we follow modern Amalickiahs. Amalickiah gained dominion over the Lamanite nation through treachery, fraud, deceit and murder. He was the model scheming leader. He engaged in a false-flag terrorist attack to goad them into warring with the Nephites, and they were none the wiser. This type of fraud was perpetrated on the American public in September of 2001. For further perspective Please read my articles entitled Amalickiah, The model Scheming Leader and The Virtue of Captain Moroni.

These comparisons could go on and on. At this point you may agree with some of my comparisons and scoff at others. But remember, you keep reading this book. I do not think it means what you think it means. Nevertheless keep reading the Book of Mormon. It will make more sense as our situation becomes worse and worse. There are many more parallels to draw between the Book of Mormon and our day.

The Warning Voices

When likening the scriptures to ourselves there are a couple of stories that might get under the skin of active members of the LDS church. We ought to consider the possibility that they will come to pass in our day. The two stories are those of Samuel the Lamanite and Abinadi. These stories weren’t thrown in just to teach us a bit of doctrine. These are types and shadows. We need to pay close attention.

Samuel came to the Nephites in a time of great wickedness. The prophet of the church, Nephi, was scorned and dismissed by the mainstream. Samuel delivers his message. He is rejected by the people and escapes never to be heard from again. The type and shadow of Samuel may be relevant in the future. How would one recognize his message? First of all he prophesied of Christ and called the people to repentance. He claimed an angel had given him his message. He spoke the words of the Lord clearly saying, “Thus saith the Lord.” Samuel called the people to repent. He prophesied of great events in the near future. He told of the coming of the Lord and of imminent destruction. The striking thing about Samuel is that he came from outside the accepted hierarchy. He was also miraculously protected from the attacks of the people. (Helaman 13-15)

abinadiAbinadi, on the other hand, came to a city where the mainstream religious leaders were well accepted. In fact they were running all the affairs of the people. The king and his priests were both the political and spiritual hierarchy of the people. Although he was already among the people (Mosiah 11:20), Abinadi also came from outside the accepted hierarchy. Is it inconceivable in our day that the mainstream could become so corrupted from head to tail that the Lord would send an Abinadi to call us to repentance? (2 Nephi 19:15-16)

The thing about being in the mainstream when it has become corrupted is that the pride of the society makes it extremely difficult for its members to see that they have gone astray. Laman and Lemuel fell into this trap. They observed, “we know that the people who were in the land of Jerusalem were a righteous people; for they kept the statutes and judgments of the Lord, and all his commandments, according to the law of Moses; wherefore, we know that they are a righteous people; and our father hath judged them.” (1 Nephi 17:34) In their estimation the fact that they kept the statutes, judgments, and commandments made them righteous. Isaiah warned of the Lord’s displeasure in Israel’s seemingly good works. “To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats… Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.” (Isaiah 1:11,13) Mormon explained that“God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing. For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.” (Moroni 7:6-7) This real intent should be founded in hope to be with God and enter into His rest now and in the world to come. (Moroni 7:3) Jeremiah explained the Lord’s displeasure saying, “they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the Lord.” (Jeremiah 9:3) The people did not desire to know God literally. They did not believe.

How can we avoid falling into the same trap? As evidenced above, the key to understanding the status of a society is to determine if they know God. Are we openly teaching that God is no respecter of persons and that all men, women and children should seek His face? Do we teach that we should seek a real personal relationship? Or do we focus on the rituals, the statues and the rote commandments, meetings and ordinances. Do we create a culture of veneration for the hierarchy or do we point to the Lord God, Jesus Christ in all things. Do we praise and give glory and honor to the Lord? Do we speak with the tongue of angels by the power of the Holy Ghost unto the convincing of men?

Certainly a modern Samuel or Abinadi would be cast out or destroyed by the people they intend to teach. They would teach the words of Christ having received them from heaven. They would call upon men everywhere to repent and would proclaim unambiguous testimony, having seen and heard ministering angels and the Lord Jesus Himself. Perhaps their words would mirror the warnings of those who cry from the dust. To us, the gentiles, their words might seem harsh. As these last days unwind before our eyes we should watch for these types and shadows. When that uncomfortable warning voice of the Holy Ghost prompts us that we are hearing the words of such a type, will not the end of the time of the gentiles be at hand?

And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways? Know ye not that ye are in the hands of God? Know ye not that he hath all power, and at his great command the earth shall be rolled together as a scroll? Therefore, repent ye, and humble yourselves before him, lest he shall come out in justice against you—lest a remnant of the seed of Jacob shall go forth among you as a lion, and tear you in pieces, and there is none to deliver. (Mormon 5:22-24)

About Dan Campbell

Dan Campbell is a co-founder of medicalcostshare.com. He identifies himself as a "juris naturalist." Living in Highland, Utah, he has 4 goats and one cat. His other writings can be found on chronicleofnations.com
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80 Responses to A Modern Abinadi

  1. Terri Saldate says:

    Wow. I like what you’re writing and I agree. I’m not sure how your site ending up in my email but I’m glad it did! I’ll be following your writings. Thanks for sharing!

  2. diligentdave says:

    Dan,

    I think that perhaps Abinadi might be the most under-appreciated person in the Book of Mormon. By most accounts, and certainly by worldly ones, he failed. He tried to get King Noah and his priests to repent. Like Abraham, he brought only one “son” “to life” to carry on—Alma. But, like Isaac, (and like Abraham, since Abinadi was, as Abraham was describe, “as good as dead”), still, that singular “son” (convert) repented, and went on toe be the founder of the Church that eventually extended throughout both the Nephite and Lamanite civilizations. In fact, that most important religious renaissance, given birth to by Abinadi, greatly impacts the world today. The baptismal waters after whom the prophet Mormon was later named, still “wash the world”!

  3. diligentdave says:

    re: And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways? Know ye not that ye are in the hands of God? Know ye not that he hath all power, and at his great command the earth shall be rolled together as a scroll? Therefore, repent ye, and humble yourselves before him, lest he shall come out in justice against you—lest a remnant of the seed of Jacob shall go forth among you as a lion, and tear you in pieces, and there is none to deliver. (Mormon 5:22-24)

    This verse is an allusion to a prophecy first given by Micah, chapter 5, verses 8 & 9. It was given, however, more completely, by the Savior when speaking to the remnant of Nephites & Lamanites…

  4. diligentdave says:

    …but first, the rendition from Micah—

    And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.
    9 Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off
    (Micah 5:8 – 9)

    12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

    …..

  5. diligentdave says:

    …..13 Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off.

    (Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 21:12 – 13)

    This prophecy was also given, prefaced and covered by the Savior as found in 3 Nephi, Chapters 16, and 20.

    This prophecy is perhaps one of the biggest ones regarding US (as in us & US) anywhere. Four references to it in the Book of Mormon alone, plus Micah’s, makes FIVE witnesses to this coming event.

    Sequentially, though, the prophecy of the verses FOLLOWING 12 & 13 in 3 Nephi 21, though, MAY (likely?) happen FIRST—

    14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;

    …..

  6. diligentdave says:

    …..
    15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;

    (Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 21:15)

    Anyone genuinely interested may inquire further at my moniker here (at) gmail.com

  7. Rand says:

    My concern with both examples is that the statement that they both came from without the accepted Hierarchy is an assumption. It doesn’t say that anywhere.
    That assumption can lead to many conclusions that can be drastically damaging to a persons spiritual journey.

    • spencer says:

      The only thing in my opinion that could be damaged is the testimony of a hierarchy, opening a door to a stronger testimony of the gospel.

    • The problem with your own comment is in the not knowing, as you mention. Making the assumption that either of these men WERE from within the accepted church hierarchy can also lead to damaging conclusions, should that assumption be false.

      I often think about Alma, who was one of the wicked priests of King Noah when they brought Abinadi to trial. I wondered where he got the authority to baptize people (at the waters of Mormon, for example), until I realized one day that he already had the priesthood. These priests may have been wicked, but they were the duly ordained leaders of the church! It was a true organization that had become corrupt, just as has happened at other times in the scriptures, just as this article above implies. These things are cyclical!

      • Rand says:

        I didn’t conclude he was. Either conclusion is faulty with all its succeeding suppositions. Therefore, leave it out of the discussion, unless it is the central them of debate.

        • qC says:

          Or the Holy Ghost could tell you if they were in the Hierarchy. Once the question is answered I see nothing wrong with presenting it as at least a possibility.

          • Rand says:

            I actually don’t have a problem with them being from or from without the accepted hierarchy. My problem is that the author seemed to need them to be from without, or he wouldn’t have said it. That creates a troubling trend of thinking in the rest of his article.

          • Catherine says:

            We make assumptions about the scriptures constantly. There is nothing wrong with someone challenging our assumptions, even if they are commonly held among the church. If nothing else it forces us to study and pray to know which is right, if any. Our testimony becomes firm as we extend the required effort and the only loss is a “false tradition” of our fathers…I cannot consider the time spent to gain a firmer testimony (if the original assumption is true) as a loss.

            I would suggest we stop arguing about whether the author has the right to state his beliefs in his own writings, and turn our energy to finding an answer for ourselves. Are we the policemen of others’ thoughts and beliefs now? We would be far more wise to police our own…

    • Suzanne says:

      I see your point. There was a red flag raised inside my heart when I read that too. But then I arealized the pattern of humans to put limits and expectations on God. We get far too wrapped up in the minute details of how this type will manifest in our generation. I already feel like a Samuel or an Abinadi just because I am home schooling my kids. It’s tough doing this in a culture that has so many preconceived notions of what success looks like. So, let’s take it from the book, the Phantom Tollbooth, and not jump to conclusions. I think it is wise not to put mortal limits on types and shadows that the Lord intends to teach us with. I think it is more of an individual application rather than a church wide situation. We’ve also been told that the Lord will take care of

      • Suzanne says:

        any faulty teaching or apostasy going on in high places. Who knows what methods he will use to do that? I’m not looking for anyone outside of the church to come and set Pres. Monson and the brethren straight. The kingdom of God will roll forward and not be taken from the earth again. This time his people will be asked to leave Babylon Spiritually, rather than physically. When we leave spiritually, then the separation will become clear cut, the wicked will then be cut down. Justice happens…

        • Wanda Cardenas says:

          Have you read Jeffrey R Holland’ talk
          ISRAEL ISRAEL GOD IS CALLING?
          Given at Dixie State College.
          If not, you will enjoy it.

  8. Frances Emerson says:

    As I read the book of Mormon anymore, I think, “This is us, this is now!” Just substitute current names and places and it is every whit the current situation.

  9. Donald Saba says:

    I agree with your conclusions with regard to what the Book of Mormon is teaching us. One day the Lord will raise up a prophet in the Church, in the not too distant future, that will go against the world and not try to gain acceptance of the world and many will fall away. It is becomming more and more difficult to distinguish some members from the worldly because they have become secular. For example saying that same sex attraction is ok as long as it is not acted upon. What an abomination!

  10. mechjunk says:

    @ Rand
    The only thing I would point out is that the Savior upbraided Nephi for not including Samuel’s account and then asked him (Nephi) to include it with the Nephite records which would support the idea that Samuel may have been outside the hierarchy at the time.

    • Rand says:

      Good observation. I appreciate it. Thanks for sharing. My thought about that was that it seems that they had Samuels prophecy recorded, just not included in the record that was referred to by the Savior, how else could they have recorded it after several years?

  11. maggie says:

    Does anyone think we have an Abinadi or Samuel right now?

  12. Chuck says:

    Thank you for a great article. It is spot on, for my understanding. Why people would believe that the message must come from the church president or an apostle to be true, after a majority of the church has already dismissed or rejected the message from those sources, is beyond me. Those who don’t want to know such uncomfortable truths will nit-pick till they are in chains.
    I love the fact, that even when Moroni was wrong (about the intentions of Pahoran), he acted for good according to his understanding and gained an ally for his trouble.
    The Lord improves the understanding of those who seek truth and comes to the aid of those who do what they can to oppose evil. Thank you again!

  13. Laurie says:

    Whne I read the title: A modern Abinadi……I immediately had an audio-visual recall of the real-life speech that Ron Paul nobly gave to the Congress…..maybe some of you have seen and heard it, too (search You Tube for Ron Paul’s “What if…..” speech). This small in stature, old man speaking the truth to the big wigs in Congress ( one of many noble speeches, pleas, and warnings by Ron Paul to Congress, but among his most powerful to date). He was an insider in that he was a congressman, but an outsider in that he dared to speak the unspeakable cold hard truth of of government’s waywardness, sloth, deceit, (SINS) out lous for all to hear and ponder. He was calling them to repentence. They bound and gagged him, banished him….for Abinadi-like “blasphemy”.

  14. Laurie says:

    His son, Senator Rand Paul, made an equally Abinadi-like speech for an hour or more today during a session of the Senate…..addressing it to……..our corrupt President Barack Obama!

    Sadly, even the “very elect” were so sure that a fellow latter-day saint would be the chosen one to ride up on the white horse and save the constitution when it was hanging from a thread…that they were blind to the stark contrast between Ron Paul and Mitt Romney. No offense to Brother Romney, but his defense of the Constitution, our liberties, and daring to speak the truth however unpopular was weak compared to that of Ron Paul. We , like the Nephites, need to recognize God speaking through an “outsider” ( a Lamanite or (I loathe this term) “non-member”) Vote for truth not just lds

  15. Laurie says:

    This article by Dan was very well written and thought-provoking. I will be forwarding it to my associates. Thanks for writing this.

  16. Robert says:

    Great article, although uncomfortable to think about. I have made similar observations and in my understanding we as a church are alreay missing the mark. One of the things Abinidi talked about extensively was that they (the leadership of the church) talked of teaching the Commandments but obviously did not understand them. I feel we are coming to that now in many ways.

    I will use tithing and the commandment thou shall not steal as an example. Currently as policy the church accepts fiat currency as tithes and offerings. Simply put, fiat currencies are political currencies and used as a mechanism of plunder therefore the church is supporting iniquity in this particular case plunder or theft. Mosiah 11:6-7 teaches supporting iniquity is iniquity, so, strike one.

  17. Robert says:

    Also, anything more or less than that law which is the constitutional law of the land cometh of evil. Paper money is completely unconstitutional and legally indefensible as well as unintelligible.

  18. Yvonne BENT says:

    I find the comments to this post almost as interesting as the post itself. Do you remember the attitudes and comments of the people of the church at the time of Abinadi and Samuel the Lamanite? There was so much speculation, so many different groups that were trying to destroy the prophets. We know of the statement that in the last days people will be saying, “All is well in Zion.” What about being led to a false sense of security? When a people want to point a finger at any prophet and accuse him for false judgement, whether he comes through the “proper channels” that God decrees, the greater question is the one the apostles asked while sitting around with Jesus after the sacrament, “Is it I? Are we guilty? Do we see ourselves repeating a pattern unawares?

    • Grace Hall says:

      Just follow the Prophet he is the Lords mouth piece JS-M 1:35 heavens and earth shall pass away, yet the Lords words shall not pass away; whoso treasures up the Lord’s words shall not be deceived.

      Grace Hall Panmure ward Panmure Stake New Zealand.

    • BJ Spurlock says:

      I like this comment. It is a conclusion that I am coming to. The Book of Mormon blatantly points out the political, philosophical, theological, and economic disputations that will occur again in our day.

      The temptation for some is that as soon as they receive some true revelation, they set themselves up as a light and it becomes priestcraft. I agree with everything that was in the article, but I am becoming more convinced that we follow the prophet and in our personal lives become independent spiritually.

      I love the statement by Harold B. Lee that the church doesn’t take a stance on all things, but the Lord does. For the prophet to come out and speak about all these things would rob us of our spiritual independence, which is the “principle of salvation”. (BD)

  19. Rhonda says:

    Just follow the Prophet.

    • Abinadi says:

      I am a prophet. Am I the prophet to whom you were referring? I have seen the Lord and He has spoken to me. He has told me to cry repentance to this people.

      I second the testimony of Abinadi and other prophets in the Book of Mormon. Moroni said,

      38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world? (Mormon, Chapter 8)

      Why have we polluted the holy church of God? Why are we ashamed to take upon us the name of Christ?

      We walk in the pride of our hearts and cannot see it.

  20. JR says:

    “The thing about being in the mainstream when it has become corrupted is that the pride of the society makes it extremely difficult for its members to see that they have gone astray.”

    Your really nailed it here!
    Anything more said is unnecessary!
    JR

  21. I respond to Robert of March 7th. Robert, you correctly identify fiat money as being unconstitutional, but your application as relates to tithing and the suggestion that “the church accepts fiat currency as tithes and offerings. Simply put, fiat currencies are political currencies and used as a mechanism of plunder therefore the church is supporting iniquity in this particular case plunder or theft. Mosiah 11:6–7 teaches supporting iniquity is iniquity, so, strike one” is certainly strange. You say “political currencies” without suggesting an alternate currency. My question to you would be, has the Lord given any of our leadership a revelation or direction to not use that currency? If so, I am uninformed.

  22. Rather, I look to see if the Lord has withdrawn his support for the Church and I find nothing to support such a proposal. Despite all the opposition, I observe by many evidences that the Church is growing steadily during my years of membership. It continues to build paid-for meetinghouses, libraries, deseret industries, canneries, MTCs, Temples etc all over the world. Has the Lord prospered his Church? Absolutely yes! You may be critical of fiat money used to finance the Church but your criticism fails to provide an alternative. Do you have one?

  23. Back to A Modern Abinadi. Dan, I reverence your many quotes from our scriptures and your understanding of our current challenges. However, I am puzzled that in all of those references I find only one from Isaiah. Yet at the end of 3 Nephi 22 and the beginning of 3 Nephi 23 I read that we are to study Isaiah and “that which was shall be.” In this regard I admit my bias in making the message of Isaiah equal or more important than any of those you refer to. I do so because in 1995 I was privileged to begin my study of Isaiah from lectures given by Avraham Gileadi who has (1) provided a current translation of Isaiah into modern English using the very best academic sources available and (2) has provided a verse-by-verse commentary.

  24. The Book of Isaiah has been a scholar’s challenge because, according to Dr. Gileadi, it is a sealed book, meaning it has been encoded; and to discover the depth of its message it must be decoded. Dr. Gileadi uses his studies in the Rabbinic schools in Israel and later studies in literary analysis to decode the messages of Isaiah. I found it exciting to learn that Isaiah, like many other Prophets has, in vision, seen our day, and in reading his writings I am convinced that he really has seen our day! His prophesies are being fulfilled right before my very eyes. When I read his words and add to them your many references, I am totally convinced that those who humbly read what the Lord has given us, especially the unique message of Isaiah, we can be prepared.

  25. Let me add a little about Dr. Gileadi’s comments for any who might wish to access. The comments (when I studied) were on 23 audio cassettes. Next they there were transferred to two MP-3 CDs. Most recently they are available in written form with the translation printed in italics followed by the comments in standard text with inserted Hebrew for key words in the translation for those who read Hebrew. To date Part One provides commentary for Chapters 1 – 35. You can find “Apocalyptic Commentary of the Book of Isaiah” under his name using any of the several search engines. He is lecturing tonight in Provo as advertised.

  26. Robert Roe says:

    This is in response to David H. Bailey’s remarks on March 16, 2013. David, first I want to thank you for your comments, I feel it will be the beginning of a great discussion and we will both learn much. In regard to whether or not the church leadership has been given any revelation or direction to not use fiat currency, the answer is yes.
    Continued…

  27. Robert Roe says:

    In D&C 98:3-15 we learn that we are commanded to “forsake all evil and cleave unto all good.” We also learn that anything “more or less” than that law “which is the constitutional law of the land, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges” is evil. So, if something is illegal, extralegal, or in any other terms unconstitutional, or does not support “that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges”, then we are commanded to forsake it. The question then becomes, what does the Constitution say about money? Continued…

    • Hi Robert Roe. Without looking up the specifics, I recall the Constitution was clear that we are to use gold and silver coin; and I am keenly aware of D&C 98 as it is applicable. In looking at monetary history, the initial use of a bank or depository where your hard specie was stored and replaced by a certificate with a small fee for the service seemed to be a convenience. But soon, the greed of the money-holder destroyed the honesty of that system when it was discovered that calls for the hard specie were so rare that speculation entered the service and the bankers began loaning, with usury, certificates of deposit that gradually increased to the 90% level. That number soon became accepted as standard practice and is now used in the fiat money system.

  28. Robert Roe says:

    Contrary to the understanding of many who are thought to be well versed in matters of constitutional law, there is and never was such a thing as a “gold standard” at least not in constitutional terms. The Constitution has strict monetary powers and disabilities that define in no uncertain terms what the official money of the United States are to be expressed in and the answer is “dollars” not “dollar bills” and certainly not “Federal Reserve Notes”. To understand what Constitutional money is I will refer you to Dr. Edwin Vieira Jr., his work on the constitutional powers and disabilities of the US Constitution are matched by none and you will find no better information on the subject, for a short read go to the following link: Continued…

  29. Robert Roe says:

    http://www.fame.org/HTM/Vieira_Edwin_What_is_a_Dollar_EV-002.HTM

    For those with the appetite, a more in-depth read would be Dr. Edwin Vieiras 2 Vol. Treaties on the monetary powers and disabilities of the United States Constitution titled, “Pieces of Eight: The Monetary Powers And Disabilities of The United States Constitution”. It can be purchased for your academic pleasure and constitutional learning at the following link.

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0967175917
    Continued…

  30. Robert Roe says:

    As for what we should be doing as an alternative? I suggest we do as we are commanded and befriend that law which is the constitutional law of the land and forsake all evil. If we are going to be using a media of exchange to pay tithes and offerings rather than grain, animals, etc. then we should use what the constitution requires and not support an iniquitous and evil media of exchange. So, if the Constitution mandates that we use gold and silver with the “dollar” being the standard of weights and measures—a dollar being defined as 371.25 grains fine silver—then the simple answer is do just that.
    Continued…

  31. Robert Roe says:

    If the church adopted as its policy, to accept only commodities, or tangible things of intrinsic value that were created/organized by a mixture of labor and natural resources rather than fiat—therefor giving them a valuation based on agency instead of governmental decree—we would receive the full blessings of tithing. It is my impression that, tithe-paying members are receiving the blessings associated with obedience because they are attempting to pay an honest tithing, but they are not receiving the blessings of actual tithing. D&C 130:20-21 teaches that we obtain blessings in accordance with obedience to specific natural laws and that these natural laws have individual blessings specific to them.
    Continued…

  32. Robert Roe says:

    If we deviate from those specifics how then can we obtain the blessings associated with a law we are not in actuality following? In Alma 57:21 we learn that the stripling warriors were blessed because they were obedient with exactness and likewise we are commanded to be obedient with exactness in order to receive blessings associated with specific actions.
    Continued…

  33. Robert Roe says:

    We are asked to “pay an honest tithe”, but how can we “pay an honest tithe” if we are not using an honest currency to pay from the very start? If the fiat currency we are using is given to us, as a mechanism that plunders us, are we not then “robbing God in tithes and offerings” when we transfer an unstable instrument of plunder to the church? What happens when we have a major monetary and banking collapse in the United States and sub sequentially any other country tied to the world’s reserve currency?
    Continued…

  34. Robert Roe says:

    Think of the inevitable progress that would ensue were the church to adopt such a policy as mentioned earlier, we would then become an industrious people once again because we would not be able to use fictitious and inflationary instruments of supposed wealth to get by in life, off the labors of others no less, in this case the backs of the future recipients of the inevitable collapse of the global fiat monetary and banking system. Inflation is a future tax, so someone has to pay for the losses in purchasing power that occur due to the expansion of the money supply beyond the production of gold and silver circulating in the market.
    Continued…

  35. Robert Roe says:

    If individuals are subject to economic crises by being tied to the fiat currencies in the various countries of the world, then the church is at just as much risk by virtue of economic laws.

    In regard to the progress of the church, I think that is somewhat debatable. Church statistics are not exactly clear because they do not account for less active, and inactive membership. There are estimates, the integrity of which can be considered questionable, but nonetheless they estimate that church progress is actually stagnant and in some cases in slight decline. The purchase of buildings, and other assets does not equal progress, and there is a scripture that sums up you’re thought that “all is well in Zion”.
    Continued…

  36. Robert Roe says:

    2 Nephi 28:21
    21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

    How are we led “carefully down to hell”?

    Alma 12:11
    11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.
    Continued…

  37. Robert Roe says:

    The following are some quotes from powerful men about money, credit, and banking.

    “Let me issue and control a nation’s money and I care not who writes the laws.”
    (Mayer Amschel Rothschild, 1970)

    “Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly” is one of the foundational planks of socialism. (Karl Marx)

    “The establishment of a central bank is 90% of communizing a country.”
    (Lenin)

    “Print is the sharpest and strongest weapon of our party”
    (Stalin)
    Continued…

  38. Robert Roe says:

    Now contrast that with what has been said by leaders of the church.

    I consider that it is not only prudential, but absolutely necessary to protect the inhabitants of this city from being imposed upon by a spurious currency… I think it much safer to go upon the hard money system altogether. I have examined the Constitution upon this subject and find my doubts removed… Shall we be such fools as to be governed by its [the Illinois legislature] laws, which are unconstitutional? No! We will make a law for gold and silver; and then the state law ceases and we can collect our debts.
    (Joseph Smith, Feb. 25, 1843. —DHC 5:289-290)
    Continued…

  39. Robert Roe says:

    “The root of all evil is money, some say. But the root of our money evil is government. The very beginning of our troubles can be traced to the day when the federal government overstepped its proper defensive function and began to manipulate the monetary system to accomplish political objectives. The creation of the Federal Reserve Board made it possible in America for men arbitrarily to change the value of our money. Previously, that value had been determined solely by the natural interplay of the amount of precious metals held in reserve, the value men freely placed on those precious metals, and the amount of material goods which were available for sale or exchange. (An Enemy Hath Done This, pp. 213-14.)
    Continued…

  40. Robert Roe says:

    The pending economic crisis that now faces America is painfully obvious. If even a fraction of potential foreign claims against our gold supply were presented to the Treasury, we would have to renege on our promise. We would be forced to repudiate our own currency on the world market. Foreign investors, who would be left holding the bag with American dollars, would dump them at tremendous discounts in return for more stable currencies, or for gold itself. The American dollar both abroad and at home would suffer the loss of public confidence.
    Continued…

  41. Robert Roe says:

    . If the government can renege on its international monetary promises, what is to prevent it from doing the same on its domestic promises? How really secure would be government guarantees behind Federal Housing Administration loans, Savings and Loan Insurance, government bonds, or even Social Security?
    Even though American citizens would still be forced by law to honor the same pieces of paper as though they were real money, instinctively they would rush and convert their paper currency into tangible material goods which could be used as barter.
    Continued…

  42. Robert Roe says:

    As in Germany and other nations that have previously traveled this road, the rush to get rid of dollars and acquire tangibles would rapidly accelerate the visible effects of inflation to where it might cost one hundred dollars or more for a single loaf of bread. Hoarded silver coins would begin to reappear as a separate monetary system which, since they have intrinsic value would remain firm, while printed paper money finally would become worth exactly its proper value-the paper it is printed on! Everyone’s savings would be wiped out totally. No one could escape.
    Continued…

  43. Robert Roe says:

    One can only imagine what such conditions would do to the stock market and to industry. Uncertainty over the future would causethe consumer to halt all spending except for the barest necessities. Market for such items as television sets, automobiles, furniture, new homes, and entertainment would dry up almost overnight. With no one buying, firms would have to close down and lay off their employees. Unemployment would further aggravate the buying freeze, and the nation would plunge into a depression that would make the 1930s look like prosperity.
    Continued…

  44. Robert Roe says:

    At least the dollar was sound in those days. In fact, since it was a firm currency, its value actually went up as related to the amount of goods, which declined through reduced production. Next time around, however, the problems of unemployment and low production will be compounded by a monetary system that will be utterly worthless. All the government controls and so-called guarantees in the world will not be able to prevent it, because every one of them is based on the assumption that the people will continue to honor printing press money.
    Continued…

  45. Robert Roe says:

    But once the government itself openly refuses to honor it-as it must if foreign demands for gold continue-it is likely that the American people will soon follow suit. This, in a nutshell, is the so-called “gold problem.” (An Enemy Hath Done This, pp. 216-18.)
    Continued…

  46. Robert Roe says:

    We have been feeling the exhilarating effects of inflation and have become numbed to the gradual dissipation of our gold reserves. In our economic stupor, when we manage to think ahead about the coming hangover, we have merely taken another swig from the bottle to reinforce the artificial sensation of prosperity. But each new drink at the cup of inflation, and each new drain on the gold supply of our bodily strength does not prevent the dreaded hangover, it merely postpones it a little longer and will make it that much worse when it finally comes. What should we do? We should get a hold on ourselves, come to our senses, stop adding to our intoxication, and face the music! (An Enemy Hath Done This, p. 218.)

    Perhaps this puts things in clearer view.
    THE END

  47. Continuing. Those who have looked into that system have concluded that it is truly a carefully hidden and protected Ponzi scheme. Now the challenge comes that since we are an international church with finances expressed in many local currencies, without destroying the stability of world church operations, how can we make the slow transfer to a species-backed exchange system, especially when most of church membership are uninformed of the scheme? That was my initial probe into your logic, and I value your D&C 98 reference and its application to our money system. When my investigation of church membership in relation to home storage exposes about a 15% level of obedience, I am back to my challenge of what practical approach can our leadership take to alleviate?

  48. My limited contact with those who are aware is that they are diversifying by converting our currency to more stable forms in any of several ways. And that poses the question of what are more stable ways. My personal choice is to keep those ways local and not extend my trust as I feel the direction of the spirit suggesting the use of wisdom. Of course, that will vary widely on personal thinking and circumstances. I envision large parts of our world membership where there are severe limitations to desired obedience. At present I am satisfied with the existing practice of donating 10% of my increase in our fiat-based system and in service, for lack of a better solution. That there is a more scripture supported method I admit, but timing is the Lord’s call.

  49. Robert Roe says:

    David H. Bailey, it’s a pleasure to continue our discussion. The simplest answer I can possibly give you is one that you have heard before I’m certain. Teach correct principles and let the saints govern themselves. The issue is that policy at this time falls short of correct principles. Step one would be to repent and change policy to be in line with doctrine, liberty can take care of the rest. Agents acting freely with knowledge of correct principles will find a way to fulfill their duties in very practical and inventive ways. If we are given a commandment God will prepare a way if we will but be humble and listen.
    Continue…

  50. The discussion with Robert Roe was mostly a reminder of the words and counsel of Ezra Taft Benson; we need to set our finances in order…or as the Lord told his servants in Luke 19;13 – Occupy till I Come.

    Another thought about Gileadi’s work – our Abinadi?? Just asking…

  51. Thank you Robert Roe and all others who have taken the effort to provide commentary. I note that many issues are of interest and I’m grateful for the insight each of you provide. Since I am retired and have windows in my time, I spread my learning across many avenues: political, doctrinal. economic, scientific, and more. However, as I have written above, I am heavily biased by my current understanding of Isaiah, especially because I am using a much-improved translation of Isaiah and, as of last summer, a printed translation with commentary that is my most-efficient medium for learning. A great deal of my bias is hopefully in obedience to the references in 3 Nephi 22 and early 23, but especially the words “that which was shall be.” Continued –

  52. That information tells me that Isaiah, like Lehi, Nephi, and Mormon as prophets yet future, wrote about events he saw in the Last Days that would be of assistance in our time. I testify that he did indeed see the Last Days and included those events he saw repeated for our benefit. Apprentice Vinbeazel poses a interesting question – is Gileadi like an Abinadi of our day? I would suggest there are many Abinadis among us, he being one of many who cry repentance, each in his/her calling. But I find special references in Isaiah to a latter day king of Assyria who in Isaiah’s own time conquered the cities of Judea and then laid siege to Jerusalem. After a series of events, may I direct you to Isaiah 37: 33-38 and gain hope in the protection given to King Hezekiah and

  53. the people of Jerusalem. It was their faith and obedience that provided that protection. Why did Isaiah include that very significant event in his message? Is it not because “that which was shall be? Therefore, I look forward to a modern-day king of Assyria who will attempt to conquer the whole world, and if I read about that army in other chapters, it will be a military assault that mimics the lack of any consideration for human life that I observe in our present political actions on foreign soil. His words are directly applicable to what I am witnessing from my private news sources, and they are ghastly to me. But as there was protection for the righteous in King Hezekia’s day, my faith tells me there will be protection for the righteous in our day.

  54. LibertarianTruther says:

    Very intriguing discussion. I would say the Secret Combinations have infiltrated the LDS Church organization and that is because the People have not followed the Gospel as it is written in the Book of Mormon. I believe the Leaders today are saying ‘it is too late’ if you have not heeded Prophet Benson and those before because they warned about our aweful situation. The Church people are being led astray by their works and spirituality concerning doctrine and warnings laid out before us in the BOM and Prophecies. We will rise again and the Constitution will be save before He comes but only when the Church members are ripped from their idols and humbled into starvation and poverty. Only then will we bring Liberty back to this chosen land. We will prevail with pain

  55. David H Bailey says:

    Libertarian Truther. Wow. Unless you specify otherwise, I assume you are commenting on David Bailey’s message. If so, how do your comments relate to anything I wrote? I left off with a positive and uplifting example of an Isaiah event, and you counter with unfounded negative statements about church organization and a supposed belief into what the church leaders are saying. Sweeping generalities like “today are saying” and “the Church people” and “we will rise” do not constitute rational writing about which I choose to write more.

  56. Paumea Horton McKay says:

    I am a New Zealand Maori, an Israelite, descended from father Lehi and within the context of the BK O Morm non Amerindians are the Gentiles and we (Amerindians/Polynesian Maori) are the Remnant of Jacob often referred to by some Church leaders as the Natural Believing Blood of Israel. I’m not too comp savvy so I am unable to continue my responses as has David H Bailey for example and am restricted to x number of characters. You will hear from me in greater detail. Love the info here.

    as the . WModern prophets have referred to us as “The Natural Believing Blood of Israel. Never at any time did Jesus go amongst the Gentiles as a mortal or Resurrected person. This occurred only when he appeared to Joseph Smith along with his Father. Jesus came only to the Hous

  57. Johnny Rudick says:

    I Love this site.
    Thanks.

  58. Kevin says:

    Amen, Dan. So refreshing to hear another member of the Church calling 9/11 for what it was–a false flag operation. Remarkably there is evidence of the Russians attacking their own people in 1999 in a similar if less sophisticated operation. In that case the security services bombed apartment buildings in Moscow and two other cities, allowing Boris Yeltsin to leave power quietly, Vladimir Putin to emerge as a powerful new savior and the Russians to declar war on Chechnya for the second time.

    • David H Bailey says:

      Hi Kevin. Your Russian innuendo suggests our own government destroyed New York towers 1, 2 and 7 in 2001 without outside assistance. Do you have evidence that supports that suggestion? I agree with you, it was a false flag event, but I’m interested in your thinking of how the towers were destroyed. Would you share with me? I’m concerned about government deception. Thanks.

  59. MJ says:

    Great post Dan! This is the message we are receiving at this very moment in time… and unfortunately, things are not looking to well. The end of the times of the gentiles is fast approaching. I wish we would just repent and get the fullness back before the Lord gives it to others.

  60. Brent Hale says:

    One question for anyone out there…who wrote the words Abinadi spoke and the events of his martyrdom after Alma fled into the wilderness?

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